Brexit -am I stupid or what

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by wiseowl, Dec 10, 2018.

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  1. noisette47

    noisette47 Total Gardener

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    I'm not sure it will be that simple, Armandii. Visas will be required, pet passports abolished, intelligence services no longer shared, ditto research projects. I appreciate that you sincerely believe it's the solution to making England great again, and I'm prepared to respect your belief, but the invective against those who don't share it is unbecoming and very sad.
     
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    • Freddy

      Freddy Miserable git, well known for it

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      The man that killed Jo Cox was deemed to be sane at the time of the killing. As for tarring all with the same brush, where have I done that? I have never said that all those that voted ‘out’ are racist, never.
       
    • Freddy

      Freddy Miserable git, well known for it

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      That link is meaningless.
       
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      • shiney

        shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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        I did make a similar comment by actually quoting from the report where it said the questions asked we not relevant to the conclusion. I'm not really clear the purpose of the report when it negates itself! Unfortunately a lot of reports on all types of subjects are meaningless - apart from people making a living out of producing meaningless reports. What? Me cynical? Never!!! :)
         
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        • Fat Controller

          Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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          I agree that he was declared sane in legal terms, I said he had mental health issues. Murder of Jo Cox - Wikipedia

          Whether you intended it or not, that is the only inference that can be drawn from the following, particularly making mention of foreigners.

          With reference to the last of those posts, that has been bandied about previously on social media, whilst calling leave voters Nazis, racist, far-right extremists and so on. Just by way of demonstrating how warped these sort of tactics are - Anna Soubry took a man to court for calling her a Nazi in the street, yet she now goes on TV calling leave voters Nazis, Xenophobes, fascist and racist. David Lammy has also done the same (and worse).

          For clarity, the Nazi party were a socialist party and their ideals were to take over control of the entirety of Europe; anyone that did not agree with their politics were shouted down, crushed, bullied, killed or maimed; Hitler started initially as a 'caretaker' leader, and once established they refused to accept the result of democratic votes. Surely I can't be the only one to see parallels with the remain camp here?
           
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          • Jiffy

            Jiffy The Match is on Fire

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            Will the country been run even better now that parliament is on holiday, again :biggrin:
             
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            • Loofah

              Loofah Admin Staff Member

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              Eu is apparently open to an extension :( I know they want us to stay but I was hoping to be put out of our brexit misery!
               
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              • CanadianLori

                CanadianLori Total Gardener

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                I cannot understand what is wrong with a country wanting to be totally sovereign and still able to have trade agreements with other countries. Somehow we are able to share the longest border between two countries and trade and visit back and forth (passports are a must) and nobody gets angry. Yes, we sometimes don't like the various tariffs but we don't consider it our right to have total free movement of people or trade across the border.

                Why would anybody want an organization, outside of their country, telling them how to handle important issues!

                There is a trade pact between us and the US/Mexico, another for the Pacific , another, well, etc but they in no way weaken our powers to rule within our borders.

                I don't understand why the movement to leave the EU is considered a terrible thing for those who have already left the UK to live in another country. We have lots of people living here for many years who have never taken up Canadian citizenship, but work here, or own businesses, properties etc. It would seem to me that the argument that countries who threaten expulsion simply because you were born elsewhere is a little empty. Most countries enjoy residents who are productive and law abiding. If these countries insist on citizenship, then so be it. We also have lots of people here who carry dual citizenship rather than renounce their country of birth.

                To me, the whole thing comes down to money. If the UK is being plundered under this arrangement then why would it be prudent to remain? Lots of social services within the UK could benefit from that money instead of exporting it to ungrateful recipients.

                Yes, there could be some very uncomfortable times until tariffs or other "separation" issues are settled, but wouldn't it be worth it? We are getting battered right now by Trump's vendetta for some unknown reason but we know it will swing back the other way some day so we just carry on :)
                 
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                • clanless

                  clanless Total Gardener

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                  This an interesting area. The Queen can't be sued - because the Courts act under her authority - so it would be the same as me suing me.

                  Some other factoids - the Queen doesn't have a passport, she can't be prosecuted in the UK - so she can speed as much as she wants and blatantly flout the MOT rules :smile:. Technically she could get away with murder - but I suspect that such an action would be 'frowned' upon ;).

                  Of course - MP's are not required to attend house sittings - they attend where they wish to be involved in a particular debate or are required to respond to questions. If you look at the Parliament Channel you can see how few do attend such debates.

                  So recalling Parliament does not mean that the MP's have to return and sit in their seats.
                   
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                  • CanadianLori

                    CanadianLori Total Gardener

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                    Is that ideas pulled out of someone's....? sounds like it to me! :heehee:
                     
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                    • ARMANDII

                      ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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                      Hi noisette, well, that is incorrect, Visas to travel in the EU will not be required by UK Citizens but they will need, from 2021, to pay 7 euro (£6.30p) every 3 years for a document known as the ETIAS (European Travel Information and Authorisation System) which is just another source of income for the EU. So, until the end of the transition period in 2020 UK residents will be able travel freely within the EU.
                      Again, Noisette, that was a threat issued by the EU in the initial stages of "negotiations" but the EU has recognised the folly of that as British Security Intelligence is very important to the EU and they will still co-operate. One factor is that the UK has good links with the US Intelligence Services which the EU has not and will be able to pass on Intelligence to the EU, acting as a link, with US agreement, between the US and the EU. Regarding UK/EU research programs it has already been agreed that so long as the UK keeps contributing financially to those programs nothing will change

                      Well, I hope you don't believe that I have been invective in any of my posts but I sincerely apologise if I have ever given you that impression.:dunno: In a seemingly endless "negotiation" period such as BREXIT there will always be abusive language by groups of people on both sides of the argument in the UK and also in the EU. Instead of there being a fair agreement reached quickly and amicably the UK was given an agreement which will tie it into the EU until the EU agreed to release it, The EU knew full well that that agreement was not viable unless ratified by the UK, which it wasn't, but stated then, and still are, that that was the only deal and has stubbornly refused to renegotiate the unratifide agreement because it contains mostly conditions that favour the EU. The only part of the two part agreement that the EU will agree to "negotiate" is the political "frippery" which is none binding, but will not agree to any changes within the legally binding section of the treaty which, because of the Back Stop, binds us to the EU until the EU decides to release the UK.......which could be years and years. A lot of the bad feeling is that there is a strong belief that the EU want's to show other EU members the hard line taken with BREXIT will happen to them should they wish to leave. That and the fact there is a genuine belief that the EU has been uncompromising and negotiating with a attitude of being in charge of negotiations instead of being even handed and showing respect to the UK. So there is bad feeling in the UK and the EU from MPs and the "Man on the Street, amplified by the extremist Media and Political organisations both in the UK and the EU.
                      I cannot emphasise enough that the UK joined the EU in 1973 for trading purposes only and that the EU was created for that purpose only, but we have all seen that the EU has mutated into an unelected body able to pass legislation superior to any of the EU members National legislation, controlling their budgets, national security, the way they live etc.............that was not, and is not,what we joined the EU for. But we have a Prime Minister and Government that is prepared to take the UK out of the EU despite all the political walls and barriers that the EU has put up. Yes, there will be a tough, rough period while we change the relationship but, hopefully, the EU (of which more than one country is either in or on the brink of a Recession) will recognise the need to not introduce unnecessary punitive delays and paperwork as it will damage the EU members as much financially and trade wise as the UK.
                       
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                        Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
                      • clanless

                        clanless Total Gardener

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                        Royal Navy frigate order goes to Babcock

                        This is what it's all about - the best ship builders in the world :thumbsup:.

                        EU rules would have forced us to tender for the building of these ships - the contract could well have gone abroad.

                        I wonder how an 'independent' EU member Scotland would have fared - would they have had to include a tariff fee in their tender?

                        IMHO we need to stick together...
                         
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                        • ARMANDII

                          ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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                          Well, if the Supreme Court rules against Boris's proroguing taking it to 14th October (gaining on 5 days extra of keeping Parliament closed) then Parliament will be back next Tuesday and will go into Recession a couple of days later on the 14th September until the 9th October. Some MP's will want to cancel Recession but the Party Leaders will not as the Recession period is where the Parties do election campaigning, Party meetings, etc and regard them as vital.
                           
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                          • KFF

                            KFF Total Gardener

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                            Hi Lori, you've hit the nail on the head with your first paragraph.

                            The trouble is NI is part of the United Kingdom while southern Ireland is the seperate country of Eire. It's another case of the UK wanting it's cake and eating it...... it doesn't want a land border but needs a way of controlling imput/export taxes etc and also doesn't want Europeans using it for smuggling etc.

                            As I've said before, where in the world can you go between two totally separate countries and not have to go through border/customs control.
                             
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                            • ARMANDII

                              ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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                              I understand your argument, my good friend, but again smuggling only become defined when a taxable tariffed border exists. In it's present state the Irish border is none taxible or tariffed and the UK gains no income for goods passing through and the UK wants to maintain that state. So, where does the problem lie if the UK does not want to create a trading border or gain finances from taxes and tariffs? The problem comes from the EU not wanting to recognise that maintaining the status quo and keeping a none taxable, tariff free border. A border does not necessarily have to attract taxes and tariffs, and the EU's Back Stop position is not about "smuggling" but keeping the UK under it's control for years and years because the cessation of the Back Stop, if requested by the UK, cannot happen without the EU's agreement.
                              As I've tried to point out a border in a state of mind, created by us, with unneeded taxes and tariffs created by us, all the bureaucratic paperwork ,restrictive border controls created by us. We can create an open border one day where goods pass freely and then the following day, because of political differences and agendas, create a closed border where taxes and tariffs can be used as a weapon to show other countries the way they would be treated. The UK does not want Taxes and Tariffs on either side after BREXIT but, like a certain US President, the EU is using such things for political purposes rather than security or trading benefits whatever reasons are presented.
                               
                              Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
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