Brexit -am I stupid or what

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by wiseowl, Dec 10, 2018.

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  1. Sian in Belgium

    Sian in Belgium Total Gardener

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    Sorry, @ARMANDII , but I could not let this pass.

    At the moment, there is a border. The border is around the EU. The UK is part of the EU, as is Eire. There is no border within the island of Ireland, as both countries are in the EU.
    Anything sold within the EU is non-taxable, and tariff-free. So goods, and people, and money, can travel freely across Ireland.

    When the UK leaves the EU, the border will be the same. Just that the UK will be outside the border, not inside. When the UK manages to negotiate its wonderful deals with the USA, China, Canada, and the like, the terms of that trade will be different from the terms of trade between those countries and the EU. That’s the main reason people say they want to leave - to be free from the rules and restrictions imposed by the EU (whether these rules are “good” or “bad” is mute for this discussion).

    Let’s take a silly example - Boris’ straight bananas.
    If the EU rules that bananas should be straight, at the moment there are only straight bananas on throughout Ireland, so it doesn’t matter how many times they cross between NI and Eire - apart from getting a bit manky!
    When the UK leaves the EU, and assuming the UK says that bananas can be bent, then we have a problem! Bent bananas can’t go into the EU, so there needs to be a border, to check for bananas.

    Right, we’ve had a good ol’ laugh about the silly EU and its silly rules, even though there never was a ruling about banana curvatures....

    Let’s substitute in a more pertinent trade item - chlorinated chicken.
    If as part of the wonderful trade deal with the USA, the UK accepts chlorinated chicken, we could have a situation where there is cheap US chicken in NI, but it cannot be sold in Eire, because it is not allowed in the EU. Not easy to see, compared to a bendy banana. Papers will need to be checked, lorries stopped - you have a border...
     
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    • KFF

      KFF Total Gardener

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      Well put by example @Sian in Belgium .

      Also @ARMANDII , also what about people trying to come into the UK.just this week there have been more boats in Sussex. With no border across Eire/UK they would be able to just walk down the road and then hey presto " we're in another country, different laws and no EU anymore ".
       
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      • ARMANDII

        ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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        Hi Sian, my point is that it is an open, untaxed, untariffed border, not that is no border......although, in effect, trade wise the border does not exist while politically it does.

        Which leads to my other point that it is all about a state of mind, straight bananas or bent bananas and levels of trust between trading nations.

        Believe me, Sian, there has already been talks about US standards of food quality from chlorinated Chickens to Genetically altered Corn, andd it has been made clear that there will be no drop in present trading standard,etc. There is one glaring thing that seems to be missed by those opposed to BREXIT whether in the UK or the EU and that is to continue trading with the EU we, and the EU, have to keep to the present trading standards so every time the EU raises or alters those standard the UK will have to abide by them to export to EU Europan countries .....so why does the EU need to place taxes and tariffs on a country exactly meeting the EU trading standards? Each Country that the UK trades with will have different food standards and that will need individual trade agreements where mutual trade item standards are met and understood and the UK could not export those imported to the EU. ...........but it does not need taxes and tariffs, or Political subservience to trade across borders as it does with the EU. Borders are borders agreed but taxes and tariffs are used for protectionism by both the USA and the EU...........The UK does not want to do that, we want to trade safely and freely.
         
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          Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
        • pete

          pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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          I don't think we export bananas to the EU:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
          Unless global warming really gets going. :)
           
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          • ARMANDII

            ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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            No, that does not follow, my friend, control of immigration should not be mixed up with trading agreements, although it is being so by Remainers. The open Irish Border is not being used by Immigrants now to slip through, so continuing the open border status quo would not change that as Ireland has to stick to the EU rules and regulations which would stop immigrants entering Ireland for that purpose as it does now
            There is a border and the English Channel between the UK and Europe, but that does not, and has not, stopped illegal entry from France to the UK even though we are still bona fide EU members.
             
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            • Perki

              Perki Total Gardener

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              What irks me with the backstop for Northern Ireland is, if it was the other way round the UK demanding Rep Ireland maintains being part of the UK single market, and a tariff border at the English channel adding tariffs to its largest trading partner the EU and R Ireland would never accept it but its all fine and dandy on the other foot.

              And the whole UK still being part of a customs union backstop is a none starter either, why on earth would a independent trading nation let another state / union run its trade policy its absolutely ridiculous .
               
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              • ARMANDII

                ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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                [​IMG]

                Well, I see that's a bent banana in your ear, pete.:dunno::heehee:
                 
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                • ARMANDII

                  ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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                  Which is what this is nearly all about, Perki, the EU is playing hard nosed and placing unagreeable barriers in the "negotiations" where they have openly stated that they will not renegotiate a unratified deal that only suits them...........as they want to remain in control over the rest of the 27 other EU member countries while trying to keep the uk tied to the EU. We just want to make our own decisions and trade freely with whom we want.:yes::hapfeet::cat-kittyandsmiley::coffee:
                   
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                    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
                  • clanless

                    clanless Total Gardener

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                    This Irish border business - the UK needs to take a hit and accept that EU citizens will enter NI through this route - checks could then take place in NI when applying for public services etc. or in GB at ports. The UK is clear, so far, that it will not under any circumstances impose a hard border.

                    I've said it before - Ireland will need to decide if they want a hard border to satisfy the EU or that they will maintain an open border and hack off the EU. The EU project is doomed - look at the ECB - they're starting to panic - they don't like that the 2nd biggest contributor to the EU budget is leaving.
                     
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                    • ARMANDII

                      ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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                      Hi clanless, the main problem is not people control, but trading, as we do now, across a tax and tariff free open border. Agreed, the Irish Government, wanting reunifaction with NI will want to emphasise security issues. but if they keep the open border as it is now there will be no issues. It is, as I said, the open border being used as a Political weapon, as by changing from a open border to a hard border due to a political policy not by an Independent Ireland but by an unelected organisation in Europe which is pulling Ireland's security and trading strings a EU organisation can cause a problem for a EU country while sitting and drinking coffee in Belgium or France.
                       
                    • CanadianLori

                      CanadianLori Total Gardener

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                      Chlorinated chicken is not the biggest problem with US chicken - in a lot of cases they add saline solution - yes salt brine injected into the chicken meat which is not only unhealthy but plumps up the weight by up to 10% and of course drives the price up. Been there, did it by mistake and am very careful to never do it again. :eeew:
                       
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                      • Fat Controller

                        Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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                        I think there is a better than average chance that the whole house of cards will come crashing down before too long, once we have left. Think about it - the UK is currently a net contributor, and equates to 18 smaller member states all combined; our departure, particularly if they don't agree sensible terms, is going to hit them hard. Germany is up to its eyeballs in financial strife, and is owed a shed-load of money by others. France is not in much better state. Without our money going in, it cannot continue as it has, and I believe it will fail.

                        How the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland is handled remains to be seen - I see no reason why the trading of goods across that border needs to change, as @ARMANDII has already pointed out our exports will be compliant anyway assuming that we wish to continue trading in the EU. Whilst I accept @Sian in Belgium's example, my counter argument there would be the amount of non-compliant garbage that is already making its way into the EU (and indeed being sold from warehouses within the EU) that has been made in places like China. It is very easy for these companies to whack a CE mark on something, but that mark does not make the goods compliant.
                         
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                        • CanadianLori

                          CanadianLori Total Gardener

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                          I agree with @Fat Controller if I want to sell widgets to someone in the EU then I will manufacture them to their standards/regulations. If I don't want to sell there then fine, I can make them for domestic sales. Lots of vehicles are done that way.
                           
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                          • ARMANDII

                            ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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                            Actually, Lori, we had the same Fowl problem here in the UK (while still in the EU) and it was the UK that cried Foul:heehee: and brought it to the attention of the EU and it took nearly 2 years to get agreement from the numerous levels of EU bureaucratic Councils to get a proper trading standard to ban injected Fowl.
                             
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                            • Fat Controller

                              Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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                              Two words - Horse Meat
                               
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