After Brexit - am I stupid or what?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by ARMANDII, Jan 31, 2020.

  1. Loofah

    Loofah Admin Staff Member

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    Scotland did vote on independence several years ago. After much discussion permission was officially granted and agreed as a binding vote. They voted to stay. Their leadership lost face and have been banging on about another bite of the cherry ever since to the detriment of governance of their own country.
    NI have no intention or desire to leave the union.
     
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    • Black Dog

      Black Dog Gardener of useful things

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      Are you sure about that?
      I remember the main reason for them to stay was because GB insisted they would be outside of the EU with no way to trade their goods, qualified personnel leaving the country and no chance to get back in the EU with GB threatening to veto their membership. I remember the newspapers being full of stories how bad life outside the EU would be. And I remember "the pledge" two days before the vote. Promising a lot of things that will change for the better if they would vote to stay.

      Edit:
      So while I (and a lot of Scots) accepted the outcome of the refendum, it might be fair to say a lot of things have changed since then.
      The question every Scotsman and -woman has to answer now would be "which one of the two unions will be more beneficial to them in the future"
      Why are you afraid to let them decide?
       
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      • Loofah

        Loofah Admin Staff Member

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        Me?! I don’t give a stuff at this point frankly. I think the current generations of governments pretty much globally are utterly incompetent and world relations are in a stinking great hole. If the Scots think they’re better off as a single country then fine. I happen to think that it a vanity project of the SNP and Scotland would be worse off in every respect but it’s not up to me. Why shouldn’t they have another vote? And another. Then some more until the SNP get the result they want? Because the agreement was to have one and stick to it. Lots has changed but decisions are made based on best available information at the time. Bit like brexit to be honest, we all voted in a similar manner and now we accept the result and make the best fist of it we can. No point in constant what-if whining, just get on with what we’re stuck with.
         
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          Last edited: Feb 8, 2021
        • Loofah

          Loofah Admin Staff Member

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          • ARMANDII

            ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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            @Black Dog

            Hi Black Dog,

            Well, I think there are elements in Germany and France that would like (a) to leave the EU and (b) partition from Germany itself.........but that never gets acknowledged or talked about.:dunno: Spain is also having problems with Separatists wanting independence with the EU wanting to quieten it down.
            The simple answer to that question is that the UK is a small island and, admittedly, it would please the EU and other elements to see it split into smaller separate parts in the belief that it would weaken England, (the Chief Villain) economically, which it wouldn't due to the structure of the economy. But it definitely would please the those who dislike the UK and particularly England.
            The Human Race is the only Species to create borders for Political reasons and usually it is to the detrimental effect rather than the positive. Russia imposed a artificial border/partition on Germany for decades partly as a military buffer and for punishment which the West was always against.
            I think it is recognised economically it would not be good for those small Nations who left the UK. Wales hasn't got the economic strength, while Scotland is losing the revenue from the North Sea Oil, does want to rejoin the EU, while being wily enough not to want to join the Euro knowing that would give the EU the control that it believes the English have. It want's to have it's own currency, which I'm sure the EU would try to pressure them against, but would in the interim period want to still use the Pound Sterling. So the creation of artificial borders within Great Britain would only be negative and even more so if any rejoined the EU because of the unnecessary bureaucratic barriers that would be placed, an example of which is the latest blunder by the EU aggressively trying to introduce Article 16 to cover it's slowness in handling the Covid 19 pandemic.

            Well, I, personally, haven't used the words "fangs, poison" but the English Language is possibly the most used Globally due to it's ability to define situations and emotions accurately. So I don't recognise that such words as Empire, tentacles, mutations, and clutches are being used aggressively, hostilely, insulting, or in a distorting fashion when used in a discussion such as this Thread. The British know the real meaning of Empire because it built the greatest Trading and Political Empire in history, but Empires never last and will always fail in the end as History has shown.
            If you ever read the UK media during the BREXIT period you would have found that the larger element of the Media were pro-EU and so it was the BREXIT supporters who were demonised. What was objected to was the manner in which the EU conducted the BREXIT "negotiations"
            making it clear it was a one way street and that the UK, having no, or little, Majority Governments, would have to agree to the demands of the EU while also trying to use it's methods to emphasise to other EU members the penalties of contemplating leaving the Club. The one thing that changed the situation was the UK gaining a Government with a huge majority that put the EU in the political Back Seat rather than the Driving Seat and facing the real prospect of a No Deal that would do no good for either side because of the determination to leave the EU.
            In my job I have to be neutral and unbiased, (despite my own personal views), otherwise I would be presenting an unbalanced and one sided analysis of EU legislation, it's precedents, causes and effects. I have to present such analysis based on evidence, and evidence only, to people who have to make decisions on Truth and evidence from both sides of the situation. My work has found that the protectionism pillar of the EU is similar to that of the last US Administration declaration of "America First". The difference being that the US is overlooked by a Federal Government that has little powers over it's individual States, while the EU is, and has been, flooding the member countries with legislation that has nothing to do with easing trade but in fact binds them closer and closer to the overall power of the EU. The EU has ambitions of creating a Federal Empire but to do that it must erode the political and economic powers and even identity of it's member states and that is what a lot of people in the UK saw and wanted nothing to do with. There is a belief with the UK Public that the EU is mainly supported and driven by two European Countries for their own self interests but, to be honest, I have never found any evidence to support that.

            Why would it be otherwise? I think my Mother always wanted the Family Motto to be "Courtesy costs nothing" and, anyway, once you start "shouting" in a discussion you have lost the viability of your argument.
            I would, however, perhaps give a word of caution as this Thread has been long, sometimes painful and always controversial where both sides have expressed their passion in their beliefs, while trying to respect each other. So, most of your curiosity........

            can be satisfied by absorbing the previous posts of both sides and their reasons for them. So, it has to be recognised that too much probing curiosity might open old wounds and that the saying "Curiosity Killed the Cat", (meaning the thread), if any one becomes offended and take umbrage, might take effect.
            However, the saying does end with "And Satisfaction Brought it Back":dunno::heehee::cat-kittyandsmiley:
             
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            • shiney

              shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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              I certainly agree that most of us are heartily fed up with discussing the same thing time and again. I have been watching the thread carefully and don't think anyone has budged an inch! :dunno:
               
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              • CanadianLori

                CanadianLori Total Gardener

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                Yes, same old same old. However it really helps to go back and read entire posts just before jammie time. :snooze: :biggrin:
                 
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                • Sheal

                  Sheal Total Gardener

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                  A lot of things have stayed the same too. As has been said the Scots had a referendum and Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP were not happy with the outcome, which is why she is pushing for another, supposedly in May. If todays news is to be believed that probably won't happen. Her own party, the SNP, are now split on whether another referendum should go ahead. So much so that it could actually break up the party.

                  Scotland has nothing to give to the EU now with the oil industry almost finished here and very little else to offer. Despite what Nicola Sturgeon may think, the EU is not interested and have made that clear to her in the past. I believe the only reason she's calling for another referendum is to regain entry to the EU and not for independence, either way I really can't see that happening. She stubbornly thinks that Scotland will gain from re-joining the EU if given the chance but there's a lot of people here that don't think the same way. If she's not careful she will find herself out of office.
                   
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                  • clanless

                    clanless Total Gardener

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                    Now we know - the UK Supreme Court have said that she is not allowed to come back to the UK. She must wait until she is in a 'safer' place (not in the UK) before the appeal over citizen ship can be heard again. It's right that Sajid's decision is not challenged - we can't remove judges if we don't like their decisions - we can politicians.

                    Perhaps she should claim that she was in fact at the time an EU citizen, so it should be them lot that take her. Bangladesh have already said that they will hang her if she goes there.

                    If we were still in the EU they would no doubt have been interfering.
                     
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                    • pete

                      pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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                      Just looking at an oline seed site set in the EU and it said VAT does not apply to countries outside the EU.
                      We are not in the EU.
                      So do we then get import tax added when the seeds enter the UK?????
                       
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                      • glengarry23

                        glengarry23 Head Gardener

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                        Very interesting reading everyone's point of view,..though we have not really felt the impact of the change,..trade wise,..it wont be as strong as before the break away and signs are showing,.. be it on the quiet,..i recently purchased a Freezer then a washing machine,..on both items i had to look twice,..something i had not seen before,..there were English flag stickers on the English items but not on the other makes,..French,..Italian,..German and Turkish makes,..not small stickers but 15cm x 15cm size,..i felt it was bringing to the attention of the purchaser that they were supporting a non EU brand.
                         
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                        • ARMANDII

                          ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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                          It will probably be added by the sender before reaching the UK to pay the EU import tax.
                           
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                          • pete

                            pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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                            Do you mean UK import tax?

                            When you buy things from outside the EU, I've noticed that if the value of the item is below a certain amount you don't pay import tax.
                            Just wondering if the same will now apply to items bought in the EU.
                             
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                            • shiney

                              shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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                              I suppose to save us all the concerns about whether there is export tax (from the EU) that will be added to something it would be much easier to try and buy British.
                               
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                              • pete

                                pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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                                Yeah but it's not always possible, our manufacturing and farming has been run in to the ground by cheaper imports. Not necessarily from the EU, but the EU did have that practice of making it cheaper for companies to move out of the UK and set up in Europe.
                                 
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