Insulation - retro install

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by Fat Controller, Jul 26, 2022.

  1. Fat Controller

    Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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    In winter, we have one hell of a draught comes in from our kitchen. The kitchen itself is unheated unless we switch on an electric radiator and that is not likely to happen as we are not lottery winners.. but, there is a draught that blows under the kitchen units (if you stand barefoot at the cooker or sink you can feel it blowing under the cupboards.

    I think part of it is from where the incoming water pipe comes up from the ground (it runs in from the meter which is in the ground just outside), so I am going to go round that pipe with some expanding foam to hopefully seal any holes there. I will do the same for the drain pipes going out too if needed.

    Without ripping the entire kitchen out (not happening, not mine!) is there any sort of insulation that I could shove in either in the gap behind the plinths and/or behind the backs of the cupboards (assuming I can even get to them)? I am also tempted to see if I can get a dark grey silicone to run around the bottom of the plinths to seal gaps up - its not as though we ever need to get behind those plinths?

    I will also be replacing exterior door/window rubbers throughout the house and am also wondering if there is an underlay that I could put under the rugs we have in the living room to add some warmth to the floor (concrete floor under a crappy carpet)
     
  2. CanadianLori

    CanadianLori Total Gardener

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    @Fat Controller any kind of caulking sounds like a good idea.

    Would a very thick underpad under the carpet help? Some of those dense foam types are very insulating.

    I've used the expanding foam and it is a good product. I'd be tempted to see if the nozzle fits under the plinths. But then again, I can be a bit aggressive about these things.:whistle:

    Edit: maybe wait until you actually get a draught coming under those plinthes and stuff wadded up paper towelling under there to see if it does help stop the cold before doing the silicone?
     
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    • Fat Controller

      Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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      For the kitchen, I did put some of the glass wool loft insulation type material under those plinths a good few years back, but it didn't really seem to help. I can get the fronts off most of the plinths for access, and have an endoscope thing that I can use to see hidden bits. I did wonder about something like polystyrene boards underneath the cupboards behind the plinths, but to be honest they cost a packet, so not likely to do that if I can avoid it.

      For the living room, yes I am thinking of some sort of underpad/underlay under our rugs (we have most of the carpet area covered by two large rugs), but not sure what type of underlay/underpad to use.
       
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      • Clueless 1 v2

        Clueless 1 v2 Total Gardener

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        I have similar issues.

        My research points me in the direction of natural wool underlay for the rugs. You can get 'thermal' underlay, but the R number for the wool one is actually higher than that of the synthetic 'thermal' one I found, and the cost difference is negligible.

        We had a draught that came through the interior door to the living room. Last autumn I put up a heavy curtain over the doorway. This simple tweak made a world of difference, with us barely running the fancy infrared panel last winter compared to it being on almost constantly the previous winter.

        I still have more to do, but as I haven't done it yet I can't offer any useful feedback on its effectiveness. On my list includes thermal wall liner, I think it's called wallrock. Purely from the tech specs, it's insulation properties are substantially better than regular wallpaper. How much better depends, because to my surprise, wallpaper itself now comes with insulation stats in its spec.
         
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        • pete

          pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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          I find that any room that is unheated will always cause a draught in other rooms if it not shut off.

          When I smoked I used to put a lit cigarette at the top of the door frame and then at the bottom, you can easily see the air flows in different directions.
          The warm air from the heated room moves into the unheated room at the top and is replaced by cold air moving in the other direction at the bottom.
          Convection currents.

          Answer is a door, :biggrin:
           
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          • ricky101

            ricky101 Total Gardener

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            Hi,

            As well as the holes for the pipes to go thought the floor ( usually just smashed through with a hammer!) behind the units they often leave out the skirting board so there is another route for the drafts.

            Using that expanded foam seems a good idea, but wihout a proper metal gun it can be a pain to use.

            Rather than sealing the Plinths, think we would get a small sheet of 25mm + polystyrene insulation from wickes or b&q , around £7 - £10 and use that like a plinth, but set back behind the real plinth but in front of all the pipes etc, then seal it in with a Silicone sealer which will be more tollerant of any movement than the cheaper decorating sealers.

            As for a good underlay, can recommend Duralay Kensington, it has two layers, one side rubber crumb and the other felt, not cheap but we have found its very effective for heat and sound insulation on our suspended wooden floor, also makes any low cost thin carpet feel very plush.
             
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            • Fat Controller

              Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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              Just about to head off to bed, but will come back and reply further tomorrow - thanks so far all :)
               
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              • Jocko

                Jocko Guided by my better half.

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                Perhaps you can fire the foam in from the exterior of the building if you can get at the pipes there.
                 
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                • shiney

                  shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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                  I used the foam to seal round pipes that go out through my loft and it was very successful in sealing the gaps. If possible I would do it from the outside simply because of the expanding effect of it. It expands very quickly and more so on the side away from the gun. As the pipes are behind the units any larger amounts of expanded foam won't be seen. Whereas done from the inside you are likely to get a lot on the outside that will need cutting off.

                  Although slight drafts in the loft wouldn't have been a problem as the floor is insulated we found that mice were getting through the gaps.
                   
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                  • Fat Controller

                    Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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                    Apologies for the late reply, the past few days have been somewhat bonkers

                    Do you have a link to the wool underlay by any chance? That sounds really interesting. The woolrock stuff is mighty expensive!

                    We do have a heavy duty curtain on the door between kitchen and living room and it is surprising the difference that it makes - we fairly recently swapped it for one that matches the decor but that proved to be too light/thin. I ordered a heavier one which should arrive this week - that won't match current decor but we need to redecorate in the next few weeks anyway.

                    I would, but it is one of those doorways that if you put a door on it, the door would obstruct something (light switch etc) just because it is an awkward aperture really.
                     
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                    • Fat Controller

                      Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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                      There is indeed no skirting board, or at least none that I can see. Having a brief poke about with the endoscope shows that the gas pipe coming in is well sealed (it comes through the wall), but the water pipe isn't - the meter is in the ground immediately outside the rear of the building and the water pipe leaves the meter and disappears up a plastic pipe and then I guess goes under the wall before coming up under the floor. This is one of the main points I think the cold air is getting in. If I take the baseboards off under the cupboards, I reckon I can get in to seal it with foam. I don't think the water company would be too chuffed if I did it from the other end...

                      When you mention the polystyrene - do you mean cut it into lengths and then use it stood up on edge with the top edge sealed to the bottom of the cupboard base and the bottom edge sealed to the floor?

                      The only access I would have externally would be to fire it up a plastic pipe right next to the meter - very hard to access as the meter is quite deep and I reckon the water company might not be overly chuffed with the meter being foamed up...

                      I have found a couple of holes in the side wall of the house (living room/stairs) that have been drilled to put cables in and they are not sealed, so I will glob some silicone in them.

                      I am not sure that any expanded foam would be an issue where I am intending on using it as it is all under the cabinets.
                       
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                      • pete

                        pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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                        Most of my services come up through the floor, cant say as I've heard of them coming in through walls especially water, it stands a chance of freezing.
                        If you have solid floors how can a draught come up through the floor.
                         
                      • Fat Controller

                        Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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                        Water comes under the wall and up through the floor, but it is carried inside a plastic pipe, I suspect for the bulk of its journey - - it is odd, and that might not be the main source of the draughts but that won't really be determined until I get a really good look at what is going on. Gas pipe comes through the wall - it even runs up the outside of the building where it goes off to the boiler.
                        There is also a drain pipe that goes out - looking at the filler around it today, it looks as though it would benefit from resealing too.
                         
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                        • ricky101

                          ricky101 Total Gardener

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                          Yup !


                          Just looking at things from an engineers view, think the only problem with foam would be if it was near or surrounds joints that needed to be checked as its horrible stuff to remove, so cannot see any reason not to use it inside or out if its just plain pipe.
                          In our house where the gas pipe comes through the wall they have used a brown mastic thats stood the test of time.

                          Are your external walls cavity or solid, and the plaster, is it plasterboard or plaster onto the bricks ?
                           
                        • CanadianLori

                          CanadianLori Total Gardener

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                          That spray on foam is not overly costly here. If I had this dilemma, I'd just go for it. It would probably do the job but if it didn't, you'd know that this area is not the source of the draught.

                          Process of elimination perhaps?
                           
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