A Word Of Warning!

Discussion in 'Edible Gardening' started by Freddy, May 12, 2020.

  1. Freddy

    Freddy Miserable git, well known for it

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    Hiya folks.
    I planted out my broad beans a few weeks back, they were looking good and healthy. For the last couple of weeks something about them hasn’t seemed right, they haven’t looked ‘happy’. At this point I should add that these are planted in one of my new raised beds, which had a good amount of composted manure (bought in from a GC) spread over/incorporated, along with MPC. Last night I suddenly remembered an issue from years ago, namely a weed killer called ‘Aminopyralid’ that farmers used to kill weeds in their fields, which found its way into the subsequent manure. As I said, this was an issue over 10 (?) years ago, but doing a bit of googling it seems like the issue is back. If I remember right, @Steve R raised the issue at the time and had been looking into it.
    Some beans are worse than others, but they’re all showing symptoms, curling/distorted leaves.

    6031B3F9-979B-42C8-8D42-EFE63C240349.jpeg

    It seems Aminopyralid is long-lived, so I’m now faced with the prospect of having to dig out and get rid of all the ‘fill’, not happy ☹️
     
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    • NigelJ

      NigelJ Total Gardener

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      I had a problem with MPC last year couple of bags where stuff just failed to grow properly, lost some stuff other things recovered when repotted into clean material.
       
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      • ricky101

        ricky101 Total Gardener

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        Hi,

        Before you go to such trouble as emptying your beds, run a simple trial with some more seeds, start off three large pots with similar composts but the first use fresh plain compost, the second fresh compost with some of that manure from the bag, the third with the compost/manure from your existing bed.

        Depending on the results it should clearly indicate whats causing the problem as it might not be down to just the composts ?
         
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        • Freddy

          Freddy Miserable git, well known for it

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          Hiya Ricky
          Unfortunately, I have no more of the composted manure. I have though been reading up on it. According to the RHS, Aminopyralid infected manure once applied, breaks down under microbial action in the soil, so should be ok next year. Only certain crops are affected, including beans. So, as back-up I’ll sow some cabbage just in case the broad beans snuff it (brassicas aren’t affected). My spuds don’t look quite right either ☹️
           
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          • JWK

            JWK Gardener Staff Member

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            Unfortunately it was me over 12 years ago coming to this forum for help when this new Aminopyralid weedkiller (tradename Forefront) was first used. I spread 30 bags of contaminated compost (ironically labelled as "organic") over most of my veg patch which killed much of my cropping that season:

            Contaminated manure & compost - weedkiller destroys tomatoes, potatoes, beans etc

            Lots of reading there and if you search this forum @Freddy you will find it keeps re-appearing every few years. Even the well respected Charles Dowding got it again recently:

            No Dig



            Aminopyralid is extremely persistent, a small amount spayed onto grass when digested by animals comes out the other end unaltered! If the grass/dung is composted it doesn't breakdown. Years old compost heaps are still deadly to certain plants - tomatoes, potatoes, peas and beans being the most susceptible. Only when mixed into soil does it start to decay, as you say Freddy the microbes will break it down given time.

            No one took the few of us reporting this seriously to begin with, I don't mean on this forum I mean nationally. Many ordinary gardeners were finding problems but didn't know what it was, just putting it down to their own bad luck. They didn't realise they were buying poisoned compost from garden centres. Worse garden centres didn't even know they were selling it!

            The 'organic' brigade didn't want to help in 2008, i.e. Soil Association, Green Party, celebrity gardeners, and even a member of the Royal family who is against chemical farming ignored us.

            Eventually it did get into the press and with the help of an avid allotmenteer in Sheffield we started to get publicity. Eventually I enlisted the help of a well known MEP who got it banned:
            Beware, do not buy Aldi Organic Compost.

            So why is it still affecting us? Because it is a really good weedkiller, for amenity grasslands there is no other chemical that kills thistles, docks, nettles etc. SO lots of pressure from Industry to get it reinstated and from farmers to use it. To be fair with correct husbandry it is safe - i.e. just follow the instructions on the label and most importantly do not use the by products for commercial composting.

            If you find it in compost now, then go back and get compensation from the supplier. We did in 2008 - so did many farmers who had spread it on 100s of acres of potato crops - the manufacturer settled then and it cost them a small fortune. Don't let them get away with it again.
             
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            • Freddy

              Freddy Miserable git, well known for it

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              Hiya John :thumbsup:
              Thanks for that, your thread made for interesting reading. Unfortunately, I can’t pin down what composted manure was used, or where I bought it. What I can say is that it had been sat in my garage for maybe a year, awaiting use. When I put it on my beds, it had completely broken down and I have to say it looked lovely stuff. This just bears out the fact that it’s persistent. As you said, the answer seems to be to dig it over a few times. I’d be interested to know what you did to rectify, and the outcome?
               
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              • pete

                pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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                I seem to remember people used to try cress seed to judge contaminated soil, mainly because it germinates very quickly, and is very susceptible to anything dodgy.

                Might be worth a try before you dump the whole bed of soil.
                It could be a virus.:biggrin:
                 
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                • Freddy

                  Freddy Miserable git, well known for it

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                  Hiya Pete :thumbsup:
                  Unlikely now that I’ll be dumping the soil. As I said earlier, apparently it (Aminopyralid) breaks down once in the soil, but it does take a while and the ground will need to be turned over a few times to accelerate the process.
                   
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                  • JWK

                    JWK Gardener Staff Member

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                    So sorry you have suffered with this problem Freddy especially since, I recall, you making new beds to grow more under the current lockdown. How very unlucky and frustrating.

                    There was no immediate fix apart from replacing the soil. I tried to rescue my tomatoes by transplanting into clean compost, washing as much as possible off the roots first. That didn't work, the plants remained stunted. Some veggies are not affected, I think you have found that already. My onions were ok and my potatoes actually recovered enough for a reasonable crop. Things like lettuce were unaffected so you could grow those.
                    I grew brassicas in the affected soil next year with no issues. It was worse in my greenhouse so I dug that out and replaced from an area that hadn't been treated. All the outside beds I thoroughly mixed to accelerate the beak down. The following year I had no further signs of damage. But I was very careful to plant susceptible plants only in clean virgin soil.

                    I feel really annoyed that this problem has resurfaced and is hitting you now of all times. I am certain there will be many many more gardeners affected who won't know why they have failed. Many will be first timers or parents encouraging their children to grow their own, it will put them off for life.
                     
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                    • Freddy

                      Freddy Miserable git, well known for it

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                      Hiya John.
                      Yes, quite frustrating. I thought I was doing the right thing, and although the beds are ‘fresh’, the ground was looking in great condition. The broad beans were very healthy and looked to be full of growth...

                      8873D712-1206-4E7D-96A2-AA37B805FCD2.jpeg

                      I’ve sown some cabbage to replace the beans, should the beans fail. If they do fail (which I expect), I’ll give the ground a good turning-over at that point. I was really looking forward to my first crop too! In readiness for next year, I’ve already got 12 bags of composted manure sat in the garage (different stuff). Caution needed I think! Gardening eh?
                       
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                      • pete

                        pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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                        I can see that onions leeks etc. might not be effected.
                        I'm not sure about this, but I presume the weedkiller only kills dicotyledons, Monocots, I assume should be unaffected.
                        The scientist in me is not always right, but I'd be interested to know if that is true.:smile:
                         
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                        • Freddy

                          Freddy Miserable git, well known for it

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                          I see lettuces are also susceptible, but as yet, mine look ok (I think:fingers crossed:)


                          B32EFC49-CD1B-47ED-98AD-86924B97C9C9.jpeg
                           
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                          • JWK

                            JWK Gardener Staff Member

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                            My lettuces were ok in it.
                             
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                            • pete

                              pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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                              Yeah remember you seeing them glowing in the dark.:biggrin:
                               
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                              • Mike Allen

                                Mike Allen Total Gardener

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                                Pete. You are getting as bad as me. You just can't resist it. All's well as long as no one takes offence. In for a pound. In for a giggle.
                                 
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