Electric cars.

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by pete, Apr 7, 2021.

  1. Black Dog

    Black Dog Gardener of useful things

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2021
    Messages:
    547
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    It's a secret
    Location:
    Germany (Emsland, Zone 8b)
    Ratings:
    +1,066
    I fully understand @Kristen .

    I think this is a perfect case of (Max) Planck's Principle . In short: new ideas don't catch on because people adopt them, but because naysayers and disbelievers eventually die out.

    The discussion is ruled by the heart and fear of someone changing or taking away the lifestyle we are used to. Or to say it with Newton's words "actions generate counteractions". So the harder a new idea is being pushed the more stubbornly it is being dismissed and ridiculed. Some famous examples would be:
    - round earth theory
    - bacteria as a source of infection
    - particle physics
    - women/black/commoners/gay rights
    - lightbulb to LED transition
    - metric system
    - seatbelts

    We will face the exact same arguments again, once self-driving cars become available.

    Until then there will be a transition period where old ICE cars are still allowed on the streets. They will also still be available for those who want them either as second hand deals or imports (probably with a hefty price), but enough to satisfy those who reject EVs completely and fill a few gaps that can't be properly filled by them.

    Regarding energy production I also think wind energy will be the way to go until we maybe one day find out way to cold fusion or something we can't imagine as of now. There is a ton of space left in the north sea. Even more space in the Sahara Desert (Desert Tech) to generate solar energy. But political instability won't let us utilise that for a couple more decades.i
    Offshore wind turbines are a good deal to satisfy various different interests. They don't take up land better used for farming, don't interfere with local residents and whatever extra cost they have because of their inaccessibility they make good for by having a vastly increased efficiency compared to land based wind turbines.
    Furthermore they don't "shred wildlife" as is depicted in most horror stories and are in the contrary sought after resting places for seagulls and other maritime birds. Additional tests with heaps of rocks loosely dumped around the base of wind turbines showed they even increase the amount maritime wildlife like lobsters, fish and everything in between because they give them places to hide and breed usually found mostly near shores.

    And yes we know, not every day is a windy day but surprisingly often it is windy enough for a turbine to move and generate energy even if it isn't at its peak performance. But even my 60+ year old father in law was sly enough to buy something between 10 and 20 kWh worth of battery storage to make use of his newly acquired solar roof. Enough to last for a few snowy days and definitely enough to last the nights in between. So why not utilise the storage capacity of those cars to stabilize the grid, even if I think it won't even be necessary. Probably might be more cost efficient to switch a few gas turbines off and on depending on the weather forecast.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Kristen

      Kristen Under gardener

      Joined:
      Jul 22, 2006
      Messages:
      17,534
      Gender:
      Male
      Location:
      Suffolk, UK
      Ratings:
      +12,662
      Blimey @Back Dog, that's a bit extreme!

      I'm in complete agreement with you of course :) ... on the other bits. Energy Security would be good, but so would Food Security. Then UK PLC could build a nice big drawbridge.
       
      • Like Like x 1
      • Scrungee

        Scrungee Well known for it

        Joined:
        Dec 5, 2010
        Messages:
        16,524
        Location:
        Central England on heavy clay soil
        Ratings:
        +28,992
        If we all drove electric cars running on 2p/mile electricity (including 5% VAT), the Exchequer would have a massive shortfall in fuel duty @ £0.70 incl VAT and VAT @ 20% on petrol/diesel. If other taxes were increased to make good that shortfall there would be no overall saving, just the extra cost of the electric vehicles.

        It may not be true, but I've read that 'smart' metering can detect electricity being used for car charging, which would enable VAT (& duty?) to be levied on that used for charging electric vehicles.

        I doubt if we'll get away with charging overnight on 'cheap' Economy 7, and wonder if it will lead to the discontinuation of that tariff when we're supposed to be changing over to electric heating.
         
        • Like Like x 1
          Last edited: May 25, 2021
        • Fat Controller

          Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

          Joined:
          May 5, 2012
          Messages:
          23,863
          Gender:
          Male
          Occupation:
          Public Transport
          Location:
          At me 'puter, GCHQ Ashford Office, Middlesex
          Ratings:
          +44,704
          See, that is where the argument gets lost entirely - calling people 'naysayers' because they raise legitimate questions and concerns about a technology or idea. Worse still to do so when you are taking money, by force, from those same people to pay for it all. At no stage have I said I am against these technologies - indeed, the opposite is true - however, I have raised the very real questions of cost and timescale, and I do object to these things being mandated - particularly so when those mandates are being brought in by politicians who have no clue about the subject in hand or the impacts of their decisions.

          I am really pleased that you are fortunate enough not to worry how you will finance your next vehicle (or whether you will be able to finance it at all), how you will afford to be able to get to work, or how you will cope if your boiler happens to go bang a year after the ban on gas boilers comes in.

          Just remember - it is those 'naysayers' who are the ones who empty your bins, drive you home from the pub, and wipe your backside in hospital when you are ill. Price them out of life and you are going to have an unexpected problem.
           
          • Agree Agree x 3
          • Like Like x 1
          • Kristen

            Kristen Under gardener

            Joined:
            Jul 22, 2006
            Messages:
            17,534
            Gender:
            Male
            Location:
            Suffolk, UK
            Ratings:
            +12,662
            My crystal ball says "charge for road usage". Fuel Duty kinda does that ... drive more, pay more. Smart Road Usage charging (i.e. not just "how many miles did you drive last year" but "charge as you drive") could have discount for off-peak with the benefit that that would move some traffic out of "peak"

            maybe, but I charge from excess PV off my roof, sometimes from 13AMP (I'd just look like an electric fire) and at work off the 3-phase-supply which has "all sorts" running off it, some of them big kW items, so I am sceptical this is possible, and could not be easily bypassed.

            "I see Sir is using Red Electricity on the public roads"

            I think that will still be a thing; when wind blowing in North Sea and every one asleep. But "Time of Use" tariffs will sort that out. Use Leccy when everyone else is and it will be more expensive than when everyone is not. When lots of PV is producing, during the day, and the Wind is blowing, then daytime will become the cheapest rate.

            Cars will have option to charge-when-rate-is-cheap, in effect those will mop-up excess supply, and not charge during peak demand (indeed, they could discharge during peak demand which would stop us having to have "peaker-plant" gas turbines continuously spinning just to be "ready" for a surge, during Coronation Street Advert "Polly, Put the kettle on please"

            They are all going to get "Living Wage" FC ... I read it somewhere :heehee:
             
            • Like Like x 1
            • shiney

              shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

              Joined:
              Jul 3, 2006
              Messages:
              54,943
              Gender:
              Male
              Occupation:
              Retired - Last Century!!!
              Location:
              Herts/Essex border. Zone 8b
              Ratings:
              +102,729
              Disparaging comments such as that certainly don't gain you friends and, more especially, defeat the chance of influencing people. You do a disservice to your argument. :dunno:
               
              • Agree Agree x 1
              • Fat Controller

                Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

                Joined:
                May 5, 2012
                Messages:
                23,863
                Gender:
                Male
                Occupation:
                Public Transport
                Location:
                At me 'puter, GCHQ Ashford Office, Middlesex
                Ratings:
                +44,704
                Living wage, or UBI? Either way, it smacks of communism to me. Makes me glad my health is in the toilet, so I will be one of the naysayers to shuffle off out of your way soon.
                 
                • Friendly Friendly x 1
                • Kristen

                  Kristen Under gardener

                  Joined:
                  Jul 22, 2006
                  Messages:
                  17,534
                  Gender:
                  Male
                  Location:
                  Suffolk, UK
                  Ratings:
                  +12,662
                  yeah, that's the one, thanks.

                  We need the Forum Rules changed to disallow that ...
                   
                  • Funny Funny x 1
                  • JWK

                    JWK Gardener Staff Member

                    Joined:
                    Jun 3, 2008
                    Messages:
                    25,290
                    Gender:
                    Male
                    Location:
                    Surrey
                    Ratings:
                    +34,040
                    My 1 penny's worth :)

                    I ran an EV for 5 months last year, a BMW i3 on a month by month lease. I was about to retire and needed a commuting car and didn't want a long term commitment. It was good experience, the running costs were about a quarter of my previous diesel commuter car, maybe less I didn't keep detailed records. It worked for me because the work place had chargers so I could leave it hooked up all day. However the electric charge rates were much higher than at home so I had an outside socket installed and charged up overnight every couple of days.

                    The range is an issue, my i3 could only manage 100 miles which is fine as a second car and in my case for short runs to the shops or work. Going beyond the range once or twice the computer sat nav continuously checks and on a map shows nearest charge points, these are only publically available points. It should also indicate if the point is available I.e. serviceable and not in use by another. That didn't work properly and worse many of the points I couldn't use e.g. were in a hotel car park and you needed to be their guest. Another annoyance were poorly policed public charge points, there was a charge point near my allotment but a local resident treated it as their personal space and left their car parked there all the time, worse the council designated an adjacent charge point as a 'free for all', so ICE cars parked there. Sadly the excellent Tesla network is not available to BWMs or other makes I think. Shame as my son lives next to a hotel with loads of Tesla superchargers which were mostly unused, I could have charged there when visiting, my model was not compatible with superchargers anyway.

                    I liked not having to spend time filling up with fuel or making a sudden detour if needing a refill. Mainly I liked not spending £80 or so each refill.

                    The i3 itself was like driving a very quick go kart, loads of fun. But being built of very lightweight materials and skinny wheels it was no fun on motorways in cross winds. There was little boot space and no thought had been put into how to stow the annoying charge cables. There was extra space under the bonnet where an engine would be in a conventional car but that was tiny.

                    I loved the preconditioning feature especially during the winter, it would de-ice itself and warm up the interior, I put that feature on a timer as my work commute routine was predictable. For ad hoc journeys it is quick to initiate from a phone, by the time I got my coat on and walked to the car it was snug. It didn't have to be plugged in to do this. The main reason for preconditioning is to warm up the batteries etc to extend range, but I liked it for creature comforts.

                    It was a learning exercise for me, eventually I will get another EV to replace our family diesel car, which Mrs JWK and myself share. It would mean more planning for longer journeys and scheduling in recharging stops on the way. Visiting family should not be a problem as most have an outside socket or could take an extension lead. It also means remembering to stick it on charge when at home, I.e. can't always just jump out and forget it like an ICE car.
                     
                    • Like Like x 1
                    • Kristen

                      Kristen Under gardener

                      Joined:
                      Jul 22, 2006
                      Messages:
                      17,534
                      Gender:
                      Male
                      Location:
                      Suffolk, UK
                      Ratings:
                      +12,662
                      Very much mirrors my experience @JWK

                      I'm not sure it will be an issue (by then). The rollout of fast 3rd party charging is well under way. My main gripe with it is that some of the players are only installing, say, 4 stalls. It won't need much in the way of EV sales before such sites will have a queue ... and if the average dwell time is, say, 20 minutes then 4 stalls and a queue is a LONG wait.

                      I hope the likes of Gridserve will prosper. Loads of stalls, and "facilities" on site to while away the time - e.g. a gym, as well as shopping and so on.
                       
                    • Black Dog

                      Black Dog Gardener of useful things

                      Joined:
                      Feb 4, 2021
                      Messages:
                      547
                      Gender:
                      Male
                      Occupation:
                      It's a secret
                      Location:
                      Germany (Emsland, Zone 8b)
                      Ratings:
                      +1,066
                      Oh come on @shiney . You are better than that. You even cut my sentence in half to make it sound like I am some kind of devil after I shortened a complex quote into a few tongue in cheek words.

                      New ideas are always contested, and I even gave a few examples later in my post. Most of them even had the "inventors" chased off, burnt or (at the nicest) being ridiculed.

                      I understand a lot of politicians are greedy, lying pieces of compostable organic matter that will try to make money. But I the second or third piece of an argumentative chain is being dismissed as being too vague (less LOCAL pollution of EV --> Less lung conditions caused by it --> less money needed to treat those conditions) than the chain (less fuel burnt --> less tax gains on fuel --> more taxes will be charged at other places) ist also pretty vague.

                      Some values can't be supported by numbers because those number don't exist yet. We know as a fact EVs are a lot less noisy as ICEs. We know as a fact they produce less pollution because they brake less often with conventional brakes and can be fed with 100% renewable energies. Those are upgrades no matter how hard people want to dismiss them ("better put a speaker in or people will get hurt").

                      My questions would be "how far does the price have to drop until the cashier from the supermarket, the cleaning lady or the garbage man can afford them?". And wouldn't you say that prices for NEW cars have always been outside the comfortable range of workers in the lower wage classes if they look at them economically?

                      Again, no one is forcing anyone to scrap their well oiled car and buy a new electric one. Used cars with ICE will be available for decades after a ban on new sales. But with prices dropping and new models coming every month there will be a tipping point in sales within the next decade or so. After that, EVs will become the norm.

                      Back to my starting quote which caused a little bit of a ruckus. The green party in Germany had testers go incognito to various car dealerships and ask for vehicles that fit into their tailored backstory (family, friends and work within a 50km radius, no heavy duty like pulling a giant cart). They found out that almost none of those dealerships would even offer if not explicitly asked. And even then a lot of them would actively discourage potential buyers. This was directly linked to the age of car dealerships owner. Things change as soon as the ownership is transferred to the owners children, which more often than not transform the business and give EVs a prominent place in the front of the show room. So Planck's Principle holds in this specific example.
                       
                      • Like Like x 1
                      • shiney

                        shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

                        Joined:
                        Jul 3, 2006
                        Messages:
                        54,943
                        Gender:
                        Male
                        Occupation:
                        Retired - Last Century!!!
                        Location:
                        Herts/Essex border. Zone 8b
                        Ratings:
                        +102,729
                        I cut it short simply because it was the relevant part of what is becoming a metaphysical discussion and it didn't come across as a tongue in cheek to some of our members who have not liked the possible implication. You may not have meant it as such but that's how it came across.

                        You have been coming down rather heavily on some of the members' points when they have been trying to point out that in the shorter term, or even longer, having an EV car is impossible or impractical for them.

                        I had already stopped reading through the excessively long posts as the topic has no interest for me and I did, what we always recommend to members, ignore such posts. I only looked in because of the complaints. :noidea:
                         
                        • Like Like x 1
                        • Informative Informative x 1
                        • Black Dog

                          Black Dog Gardener of useful things

                          Joined:
                          Feb 4, 2021
                          Messages:
                          547
                          Gender:
                          Male
                          Occupation:
                          It's a secret
                          Location:
                          Germany (Emsland, Zone 8b)
                          Ratings:
                          +1,066
                          Well then let me apologize to you and the other members. It definitely wasn't my intention to belittle them or their opinion on that matter.

                          I only find it infuriating if any argument, study or experience is simply dismissed by cracking a joke and back it is to bashing something because the bigger the expressed dislike, the more support you get.
                           
                          • Friendly Friendly x 1
                          • shiney

                            shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

                            Joined:
                            Jul 3, 2006
                            Messages:
                            54,943
                            Gender:
                            Male
                            Occupation:
                            Retired - Last Century!!!
                            Location:
                            Herts/Essex border. Zone 8b
                            Ratings:
                            +102,729
                            Thank you. We are a forum for gardening and friendly discussion and sometimes things get too serious.
                             
                            • Agree Agree x 2
                            • CanadianLori

                              CanadianLori Total Gardener

                              Joined:
                              Sep 20, 2015
                              Messages:
                              8,284
                              Occupation:
                              Battle Axe
                              Location:
                              Oakville, Ontario, Canada Zone 5A
                              Ratings:
                              +25,744
                              Doesn't matter to me whether I drive an ev or not as I don't commute to work and therefore have low mileage.

                              But one thing is quite evident.

                              The big difference is the price tag and who is able to afford it.

                              Just my opinion/feeling but it seems to basically come down to - Wealthy vs Poor :noidea:

                              That's why being a gardener, a responsible gardener, is so great. You don't have to be rich to be a good custodian of your part of the earth!
                               
                              • Like Like x 1
                              • Agree Agree x 1
                              Loading...

                              Share This Page

                              1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
                                By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
                                Dismiss Notice