Electric cars.

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by pete, Apr 7, 2021.

  1. Black Dog

    Black Dog Gardener of useful things

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    The difference is that hydrogen molecules are the smallest ones that exist. They go through rubber, plastic, and even thin layers of metal. And a lot of metals get brittle when exposed to hydrogen. Now add a lot of pressure and you get a glimpse of the technical difficulties presented to the engineers.
    I'm not saying it can't be handled, but it's a lot different from a plastic tank holding 50 liters of gas with the power of gravity and a normal lid.

    Source: trust me bro (and my Master's degree in chemistry)

    Edit: Link added
     
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      Last edited: May 16, 2022
    • pete

      pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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      Oh well there you go.
      That's shut me up then, can't argue with a masters degree.
       
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      • CanadianLori

        CanadianLori Total Gardener

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        I still say that unless you can charge your car, off grid, and generating no carbon as the charging station operates, then it is a stupid stupid exchange.

        At the moment you're still using the grid to charge your electric vehicle and how was THAT power generated. There was an article in one of the UK newspapers calling out Canadians as filthy polluters yet here in my province, we haven't had coal power plants for ages and our entire country contributes 1.86% of the world's carbon even though we must heat our homes day and night at least 7 months of the year. Now people are trying to shame us into EV's. And we do not have the grid to support this. We would need 20 more nuclear power plants in this province to power EV's without creating carbon.

        I try to be as green as possible but #1 the vehicles are beyond my budget and #2 I don't see the point in them. So many of these EV owners are not genuine about their motives. I have not met one EV owner who uses a sun oven or has solar panels to operate part of their homestead. They just brag about having a green vehicle. It is mostly a status symbol copied from the rich and famous.

        An EV really isn't green. Unless you have a glut of nuclear power plants, it just transfers the current carbon creation from the combustion car over to a power plant to power your EV!

        Maybe I should have posted this in latest moan.. :doh:
         
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        • Jocko

          Jocko Guided by my better half.

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          Hydrogen cars do not need to be electric. Hydrogen can be burnt like petrol and LPG to power an internal combustion car, with no pollution from the exhaust. All that comes out is clean water in the form of vapour.
           
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          • Fat Controller

            Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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            For perspective, a 1930's car:
            [​IMG]

            Manufacturing techniques have moved on just a wee bit since then. Batteries are a long way off being useful for heavy use sadly, hence wondering about hydrogen - things like trucks, tractors, buses, trains... they are all going to need an alternative to diesel.


            The thing is, diesel is a fraction of crude oil.. almost a by product of petrol if you like, so if we are not using petrol in our cars, where is the diesel going to come from for these heavy applications? Back up generators all over the world run on diesel, including those that supply entire communities when there is a fault or a disaster - what is the replacement/alternative for those?

            Also, riddle me this - if we are going headlong into this new green electric world, why is Esso spending many millions replacing a pipeline that runs from Southampton to Heathrow? The current one was installed in the 50's so they need to replace it presumably for the next 50 years?? Avgas is also a fraction of crude oil, by the way.
             
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            • Black Dog

              Black Dog Gardener of useful things

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              In theory you could do that, but firstly about 75% of the energy stored will escape as heat instead of moving the car. Second, the wear and tear will cause the engine to break after a short time. Hydrogen makes steel brittle, and hydrogen resistant steel wouldn't be as resilient to explosions.

              So better use a fuel cell and an electric engine and you can get more than double the mileage at a fraction of the noise.

              Edit: Link added
               
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              • HarryS

                HarryS Eternally Optimistic Gardener

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                This is how the future of cars looked in 1956 USA. Its worth a quick scan through :)
                 
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                • Jocko

                  Jocko Guided by my better half.

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                  It is hydrogen we currently burn in our petrol and diesel cars. That is the active fuel in any Hydrocarbon mix. The Carbon part is the waste product and what causes the pollution and global warming. Agreed, any internal combustion engine uses most of the energy to produce heat.
                  Using Hydrogen in a fuel cell is more efficient but fuel cells are extremely expensive. Acceptable range requires extremely high-pressure, onboard hydrogen storage. Few places to refuel. Hydrogen is very expensive to transport and there is no infrastructure in place yet.
                  Currently, hydrogen fuel is made from nonrenewable natural gas in a process that creates enormous CO2 emissions. Unless you live in Orkney and make it from tidal energy. In fact, there it is a waste product, from too much green electricity.
                   
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                  • Black Dog

                    Black Dog Gardener of useful things

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                    Vegetable oil and diesel aren't that different either. Wouldn't put it on my salad either. And ethanol makes you drunk, whereas methanol will kill you, although both are almost the same.
                    Starch and cellulose are 100% identical in their composition, but unless you are a cow, you will starve eating the latter.

                    In chemistry, those small differences matter.
                     
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                    • Fat Controller

                      Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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                      • Jocko

                        Jocko Guided by my better half.

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                        Norway has its first Power Swap Station, just south of Oslo. It is for Nio cars. You drive in, stop in a designated area and in five minutes they swap the battery for a fully charged one. It's also partnered with energy giant Shell, to roll them out across Europe. You buy the car but lease the battery. Nio sold more than 90,000 cars last year, nearly all of them in China, where it already operates more than 800 battery swapping stations.
                        Sales in Norway are still in the hundreds, but the newcomer plans to enter Denmark, Sweden, Germany and the Netherlands this year.
                        Currently, the firm does not share its battery swapping stations with other carmakers but has suggested it would be open to other manufacturers harnessing the technology.
                         
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                        • Loofah

                          Loofah Well used member Staff Member

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                          Lithium and water give off hydrogen gas... Boom.
                           
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                          • shiney

                            shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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                            What sort of cost for the leasing? :scratch:
                             
                          • Fat Controller

                            Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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                            To be fair, given that they were running a Sunday PVR, a lot of their fleet would have been in the yard so they were lucky to only lose half a dozen.
                            I genuinely dread to think what would happen at some of our sites, some of which are 'snug' at best and now running a very high percentage of electrics.
                             
                          • Loofah

                            Loofah Well used member Staff Member

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                            I remember depots, trains and buses, and they're just not geared up for disaster scenarios.
                             
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