Electric cars.

No need to do that. You can set off in a cold car, and warm it up as you go "like the old tech" , but if you are going on a long journey, "out of range", preconditioning will give you more range on that "first leg" by using mains-power to do the warming up, rather than the battery.

So for any "normal day" there is no need. Nice to get into a pre-conditioned warm car though ...

You could also take the view that that problem is "change management". I agree about people with busy lives, but they would get used to it (esp. if they can do it from their phone rather than having to go out to the car). But ... I have never (maybe once or twice when Mrs K prodded me ...) remembered to do that when "Getting up from table in restaurant" and car is freezing cold, or has been parked for a couple of hours in baking sunshine.

yeah. However, my simpleton view is that we have dug up the streets before. Clean water. Foul water / Sewage. Electricity. Phones. Gas. Cable. Fibre internet.

I agree it is expensive, but given that we are told that we need to do this PDQ for the benefit of health due to emissions and climate change then Government just need to put the job on war-footing, and stop pussy-foot about moving the deadlines closer and doing nothing to facilitate making it to happen. They didn't seem to have a problem giving contracts to all their cronies for PPE ... just do the same for Electricity.

It's OK, I'm on my way and getting my coat ...

Sure. We are hugely fortunate there, we have a massive area of very shallow water just offshore. What was thought (same as North Sea Oil drilling before it) to be an insurmountable, unaffordable, route has (with economies of scale and good British engineering creativity) turned out to, now, be cheaper than building a Gas power station.

But, as you rightly point out, we have to get that Juice all the way to every house.

I also think there is some benefit coming for all these EV batteries that will be sloshing about. As soon as cars will discharge, as well as charge, the "grid balance" will be helped dramatically.
I'll be able to charge my car during the day by you discharging yours

I would like my local water authority to take the same view and help me/others to install Rainwater Harvesting. If I do that, and stop chucking potable drinking water on my plants, that will save them having to build another (usually hugely unpopular, and certainly expensive) reservoir. Currently much cheaper for me to chuck drinking water on my plants than drill a well, or buy a big tank and a decent sized pump.

Yup. Not sure it is a good idea though ... same applies to Cars. However, Planes and Big Ships need a fuel that will not take up a lot of space / weight, and has loads of energy per unit-of-weight, Hydrogen might work for them. Petrol is remarkable in that regard, huge energy-per-unit-weight&volume.



Stuff up the top, and to the left, has great "energy density", stuff to the right, and down, doesn't :(

Compress it more, and better still: convert it to liquid, improves things ... but takes more energy, and makes storage harder.

Hydrogen is a very small atom ... #1 on the periodic table Natch! . It is pretty keen, and reasonably able, to escape between the gaps in the bigger atoms of whatever, other, material you make your tank out of. In the process it makes metal tanks brittle, so they have a "shelf life". Dunno about huge storage tanks, but certainly "car sized fuel tanks"

So some is going to "leak" to atmosphere. Not dangerous, but you've paid for it and not been able to use it. That half tank left in Spring won't all be there in Autumn. And parking the car Full at the airport when you jet off for a fortnight summer holiday will be half full when you get back (I don't know the real percentages, just being facetious ...)

The oil companies have PR-pushed Hydrogen ... because the way we currently make Hydrogen for all its current uses (i.e. the most cost-effective way, currently) is from the oil industry (actually Methane using steam-methane reforming)

You can make Hydrogen from electrolysis of Water, using just electricity. But its expensive. When we have masses of excess electricity then that might become a cost effective way of "storing" the excess.

Hydrogen is really really light / volatile. If it escapes it is going straight up. That will not help in an enclosed space, but outdoors it is better, when it leaks, than other (denser) cooking gases, ditto for a vehicle with Hydrogen tank.

There was an explosion of a Hydrogen (car) filling station in Norway in 2019 [Link], but of course petrol stations blow up from time to time too.

I think: If we had "invested" we would now be lumbered with Oil or Coal powered power stations (or Nuclear like France - I think?? they have 50+% of their generation from Nuclear)

When I were a toddler Nuclear was touted as "Too cheap to meter". yeah, I am sure that is true, but only if, as we have since discovered, you gloss over the cost of Build and Decommission

I think that Electric is not good for heating (as in 1kW Leccy in and 1kW heat out - like an electric fire). Its fine for "bit chilly I'll put the fan heater on", but not for heating a house.

Heat Pump is OK, 'coz 1kW Leccy in = (at best) 4kW of heat out. Same as your fridge - efficient, reliable, no service needed (compared to oil/gas boiler). But my problem with heat pumps is that they output bath temperature water, not radiator temperature. It is fantastic for under floor heating ... and buildings that have UFH probably have good insulation. Most houses in UK (I assume) have radiators ... and less-than-fantastic insulation.

But, calling Black-is-White for a moment, there are night storage heaters. Had them in Parent's house when I was a kid. Easy to retrofit - just run a cable, rather than a pipe. Fill a metal box with bricks and heat the bricks (using a regular heating coil - i.e. 1kW Leccy in = 1kW heat out) during the night, when electricity not in high demand, and then let the heat out during the day.

We had the same amount of heat every day of the winter, whether mild or artic. It was better than nothing, and I am sure modern ones are better ... but ... it wasn't great.

 

So ...

• if we get all our Juice from "North Sea" (and fixed the distribution)
• and Oil becomes the Pariah (as we expect)

then

• We won't import from Oil States (improves balance-of-payments)
• We'll save the money of not going to war to protect supply
• All Leccy-Heavy industry will move to the UK's "dirt cheap electricity" because they can't afford (financially / bad PR) to be using Oil
• Also, banks / pensions will stop lending money to Oil-projects

I reckon it is self-financing, just need some lily-livered politician to say "JFDI". I thought those were the sorts of decision that politicians were supposed, and trained, to take. But I've been let down more than once on that count ...

 

Good point. "Please Sir, we have an urgent need to check if our new weapons actually work ..."

Ah ... but those are offset by saving on NHS of not getting pulmonary / chest infections.

During the Olympics in Atlanta, which was ages ago (1996), they reduced cars from the area. 23% drop in morning peak traffic, and a 42% drop in asthma hospitalisation (but no significant change in other hospital admissions) [Link].

Having just polished my Crystal Ball I am sure that would offset Fuel Duty

I hope that the figures from Covid traffic and plane reduction, across the whole nation, for that extended time, will be the incentive to get on and get it done.

Dunno. we need a breakthrough invention for that. And the blinking companies to stop thinking that they need to shrink wrap each individual dish washer tablet, and Ryvita biscuit (you could chuck them in a drawer, loose, for a decade and they would still be in perfect condition.)

I wish companies would be held to account for their tardiness in removing much much more Plastic from their packaging.

Nope. I can do a Fully Nimby on that one. I think there is farmland where they could be installed, but UK is highly populated, maybe I am naïve and there will be a house within earshot of the motor-whine pretty much anywhere in UK. We seem to be allowing construction to happen in the North Sea though, so I am assuming that whatever push-back there is there have been told to sit down and shut up?

Yes, its a good point. The cost of North Sea Wind Turbine is now less than that of Gas Turbine generation. Gas Turbine you can throw a switch ... Wind Turbine you need the right weather forecast or some good storage - and THAT is not cheap.

We seem to have scrapped pretty much all, or actually "all"?? the coal power stations. That seemed to happen without drama. Anything scrapped before its end-of-life will have been expensive though.

I expect you see me as too optimistic?

I want the infrastructure so that everyone can have an EV as their "Next car", when they come to replace it.

I think, at the start, you need to pump prime a change. PV panels on the roof, EVs, better house insulation, whatever. Anyone can apply. Plenty of non-wealthy people bought Teslas in the early days - Eco-reasons, "Person next door does NOT have one", whatever. That fosters an industry, economies of scale, investment in R&D, breakthroughs, and then a product which will stand on its own without subsidy.

Those folk who were early also had to WANT to be an early adopter. That is definitely NOT for everyone. The Leaf was very successful ... and had a shiite battery management system (still does in fact ...)

So ... to counter Climate Change we need to massively reduce Fossil Fuel usage. Planes and Ships are going to be very hard ... juggernauts starting to be solved, but not easy. Vans a bit less hard, but still its not really an economic choice, but cars? People will buy those at the price that they currently are. Its all "pump prime" to my mind, and I want more people to be helped to buy brand new EV, right now, so that there are plenty of 2nd hand ones in 3 years time. Otherwise we will only make the haves/have-nots even worse.

We need government to Just Flipping Do It.

 

@Fat Controller "with the loss of revenue to the government in terms of fuel duty and VAT"

@Kristen
"Ah ... but those are offset by saving on NHS of not getting pulmonary / chest infections."

Do you honestly think if it saved the NHS any money the government would waive fuel tax, they would still want that money.

 

Nope, it was tongue in cheek. But there are some pluses and minuses, I don't suppose the top economists can agree on what they might be ...

I agree, but there are a number of people I have met (e.g. at "Car Meets") who I have definitely thought "no idea how they afforded that"

Another I know was a (high mileage) "travelling salesman", at the time charging at Tesla Supercharger was included "free". His whole economic calculation was "Never charge at home". His company paid him Xp per mile for business, whatever car he had, and he chose to pay £Y00 more on finance each month, in the knowledge that he would save that on fuel, and told me that it was "evens". Personally I thought it was risky because he was liable for the finance - if he lost his job, or had no need to travel (e.g. Covid ... although I didn't think of that at the time of course, and this was several years before then)

Someone else I took for a Demo Ride (he popped up on a forum, wanted to know if it would fit in his garage, and wasn't too far away, so I offered). He was absolutely adamant he was going to buy one and, having picked him up from, and seen, his house, I have no idea how. Sure enough, a few months later he popped up on the forum with a photo of himself and car.

Easy enough to borrow beyond ones means ...

Not sure about usage of "well off" vs. "rich"

A GP Partner salary is at the cusp of top 1%, is that well off? Well enough off to buy a Tesla without taking any financial risk?

I have no idea what a 0.1% earner is ... only 60,000 of them in the country ...

 

I tend to know what you mean John, I see lots of people living in council houses with whacking great motors, all BMWs and the like, cost a fortune to maintain.
But its all on tick, they dont actually have two h'apenies to rub together at the end of the month.
And the payments must be crippling, but they have two salaries coming in, the money coming in each month is something I could never have achieved.

 

I reckon it would have been more than that, back then, for a Model S, probably nearer £80K. Model 3 arrived in UK in June 2019, so anything before that would have been Model S prices ... quite possibly more than you were remembering for them 3+ years ago?

Today the Model 3 Short Range is £41K and Long range £49K. Range ("Official Figures") is 280 miles / 360 miles

Current Model S Prices ... ah, currently being "refreshed", so only the brand new, not yet released, model available, so presumably some "premium price to be first-on-the-block"

Model S : Bog Standard £84K, Super £110K and Supa Dupa £140K

Bog Standard 0-60 is 3.1s, More fancy is 1.99s (both around 400 mile range), and Suits You Sir is "Less than 1.99s" (Range 520 miles)

(All Range are official figures, so will be less than that in practice)

Now that @JWK mentions it that has reminded me that there is a bungalow nearby, with no garden, with both a Range Rover and a Tesla Model S (couple of years old on the Plate) parked outside; I've never seen a cable charging the Tesla, so I presume it is only charged at work and no home charger installed (yet)

Aye, that is for sure in that situation.

There isn't any haggle-discount on Tesla, the List Price is the Price. (No dealer network). I don't know about any other EV brands, but I have seen large "dealer discount" on iPace at times (same as any other Dealer brand/Model I suspect ...)

At times finance (on Tesla) has been a percent or two, and at that rate I suspect anyone would take the finance, rather than pay cash - and maybe it created an opportunity for some to "stretch" to afford it. But rest of time PCP is same percentage as any other brand.

Insurance is based on the sticker price and performance of the car ... can't dodge that. For EV Car Tax = £0, congestion charge = £0, and a few other "emission" benefits. Unless you go into London often that isn't going to make a lot of difference. I've paid the £10 fee to have the London Congestion Charge waived ... each year ... and I think I have driven into London twice in the last 3 years ... but you have to BUY the annual waiver in advance, you can't drive in and just be exempt. And TFL is discontinuing that soon anyway (might have already happened)

I'll be surprised if that will still be the case in a few years, when you next change.

 

@Kristen I now know how you must earn enough to afford your beautiful properties. Paid by the word right?

Just teasing. I'm envious of your wonderful gardens and toys

 

All contributions welcome