Environ-MENTALISTS??

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by Fat Controller, Feb 19, 2019.

  1. Fat Controller

    Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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    This is starting to get silly now - first we had the plastic bag tax, which they now want to double and now we have these ideas:

    Bottle return deposit

    Additional tax on clothing

    Now, whilst I am all for cleaning up our countryside and fully agree that we need to reduce waste and recycle more, at what point are these charges going to have such an adverse effect that it puts businesses out of business?

    Taking plastic bottles for a start - drinks manufacturers already have to contend with the sugar tax, and now these eejits want a plastic tax. Now, I can hear you screaming at the screen that it isn't a tax because you get the money back - but do you? Are you really going to take ALL of your bottles back to a machine somewhere and queue to get your money back? And what of the initial cost impact to someone's budget -- their their shopping bill going up by a few quid for a few weeks until they start to see things used and deposits returned (especially as they are also wanting it to extend to glass bottles, jars and tin cans? And how environmentally friendly is it to load up a car, and go to a machine to get your deposits back? Who pays for the machines and maintenance? And as I already pay council tax in one of the highest council tax areas in the country, will I see that council tax reduced for all the waste that I am now handling and that isn't going into a bin?

    Regarding the clothing, not all of the 'cheap fashion' is being used by people that wear it once and chuck it away - most of my clothes are cheap from the likes of Primark, because they are comfy, warm, they fit and they are what I can afford!

    Tax this, tax that...... at what point will they go too far and drive sales so far down that companies will just say enough is enough and shut up shop?
     
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    • andrews

      andrews Super Gardener

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      You'll see more of it in the upcoming months.

      Theres a big push on changing peoples behaviours on recycling. You'll see more on 'producer pays' and more on circular economy and moving away from a throwaway society.

      Gove launched new initiatives yesterday which will kick off a load of consultations

      Government sets out plans to overhaul waste system
       
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      • shiney

        shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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        I'm not against it if it's done properly but I'm extremely sceptical that they have the sense to do it in an easy and economical way. On the face of it the government will charge the retailer, the retailer will charge the public who will then claim it back from the retailer, who would then deduct that sum from their tax payment. :scratch: :rolleyespink:

        I realise that not everyone is the same so the use of bottles and plastic containers would vary considerably from one household to the other. We use almost no plastic containers or wrappings at all. 1 x 2 litres of milk a week, no other drinks in plastic or glass. Very little else in pre-packaged containers - just thought - we do have cheese and the occasional meat product and eggs come neatly pre-packaged by the chickens in recyclable containers. So we recycle about a quarter of a (non-plastic) carrier bag per week. Our neighbour fills three big recycle bags per week. The problem is whether the council actually recycle them!!!

        Deposit on bottles should work if the machines for returning them are at the places where you would buy them. I wouldn't hold my breath over them doing something as simple as that. When we were kids they used to have deposits (1d in those days - equivalent to about 15p now) on bottles (they were all glass then) and we made quite a bit of pocket money taking them to the shops for people. We used to knock on the doors along the road and just say 'empty bottles?'. I used an old kiddies push chair to collect them.
         
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        • andrews

          andrews Super Gardener

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          Ive just completed one of the consultation forms and it all sounds great. Increased segregation of products, better quality recyclate due to better segregation, businesses to segregate more.

          The issues I have are how is the recycling measured and how is it policed. There are businesses currently disposing of items classed as hazardous in their general waste and this pretty much goes on unpunished.

          I'm all for recycling, its what our company is based around, but without better communication, more feedback and increased monitoring for compliance I don't think that the changes will be that effective.
           
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          • shiney

            shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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            I agree. It's good but would be almost a total waste of time (do we have a special bin for that? Oh! I forgot, it's called the Houses of Parliament :doh:) unless it's governed properly.

            Our council are very good with collections, all free including weekly garden and kitchen waste collection, but what happens after they've collected is anyone's guess.
             
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            • Redwing

              Redwing Wild Gardener

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              I’m all in favour of a plastics tax, the more the better as it will lead to reducing it’s use and finding alternative products. It’s taking over the planet, it’s in the flesh of fish, in the water we drink and is even found in human urine in studies across the world. To me that is really shocking.

              I’m trying to cut down on the plastic products I buy and will make shopping choices based on how much or little plastic is in the packaging. I no longer by fleeces, tights or acrylic clothes if I can help it. Fleeces are particularly bad because the fibres shed in the wash and end up in water courses. We must try to protect our environment.

              I really disagree with you thread title, @Fat Controller . Call me an Environ MENTALIST if you want; proud to be one, just wish I could do more. And if the plastics manufacturers businesses go out of business, Hooray to that!
               
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              • shiney

                shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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                I don't disagree with the title as it has got us discussing the situation. :noidea: How it's depicted makes little difference to me and it's purely a semantic argument. The topic is the important thing. :)

                I don't go out of my way to be environmentally friendly but try to be if it's not too invasive of my way of life. I try to buy things that are not packaged too heavily, most of my clothes are cotton because I find it more comfortable (and they're cheap), my socks are made from bamboo because they are the most comfortable ones I've ever had. Whether it's environmentally friendly I have no idea. How far it needs to travel to get to me, what processes they go through to be made etc. are secondary to me compared to having problems (I have particular problems with my feet and that is what I implied in with regard to another topic in another thread).

                I'm told I'm environmentally friendly because of those things above but it doesn't stop me from driving a big car and flying on holiday and probably heating my house more than really necessary. But I don't pollute the air with invisible microwaves or whatever mobile phones produce.

                Each to his own.

                Recycling is a contentious topic and I think we should be able to discuss it in a friendly way. @andrews has been able to give us a professional view of it. :blue thumb: I try to follow the 'rules' but neither councils nor government make it easy to understand whether they're actually doing anything correctly and, being a devout cynic, I doubt they do much at all if it's going to cost them - apart from spouting hot air! :whistle: :heehee:
                 
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                • Sandy Ground

                  Sandy Ground Total Gardener

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                  Although I dont really want to get into any thread that concerns the environment, on this occasion, I will do.

                  Referring to the proposed introduction of a tax on PET bottles mentioned at the start. We have had such a system in force here for a good number of years that applies to both plastic bottles and aluminium drinks cans. According to the latest statistics I can find, 85% of all of these sold in this country are returned for recycling. Obviously, that means not all people return their packages. The 15% that are not returned add, in UK currency, at least £111 million annually to the tax coffers. Its difficult to say exactly how much, as its a two tier system. Of course, the "greenies" (I would normally use a much more derogatory term for these) state its not enough. They somehow forget that deposits cannot be returned on damaged or out of date items. How many more can that amount to?

                  At the same time, foreign purchased cans (not PET bottles) can be returned, but without a deposit being given of course. This brings me to a question. Should not the system apply to all cans/bottles irrespective of where they are bought? Naturally, this is a question that is never brought up by the greenies!

                  Basically, it comes down to this. The only thing that all governments are trying to do is screw the general public for more tax. Its got nothing whatsoever to do with saving the planet. The sooner we realise this, and do something about it, the better. Only then can we really start to make real progress.
                   
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                  • pete

                    pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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                    So we recycle and mess around sorting stuff then the council ships it off to the far east where they dump it in the ocean.
                    Sounds like a plan?

                    Honda have just said, dont blame Brexit for the plant closure.
                    I heard they are shutting another one in Europe.
                    It's a diesel thing, we must go electric.
                    But actually how green is an electric car?
                    I guess you can charge it up from a wind farm, perhaps:biggrin:
                    Or you might be charging it from a gas power station, on a foggy night;)

                    Add to that all the nasty stuff involved in the batteries and it dont sound very green to me, I'm also not sure its a cheap option, we aint all millionaires.

                    As to plastic bottles, yes too many just get thrown, but that is a UK problem, we probably have the worst litter louts in the world, fly tipping needs sorting, but then they should make it easier to get rid of rubbish legally, not harder.

                    Taxes are just that, taxes, brought in to raise money, end of.
                     
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                    • Fat Controller

                      Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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                      I didn't call you an Environ-MENTALIST @Redwing, and if you read what I wrote initially I have absolutely every support for doing everything we can to recycle, use less, use more environmentally concious materials, and to use less. Without question.

                      But, why does it ALWAYS have to be taxation? Why are we ALWAYS looking to hit people in the pocket? That makes the manufacturers lazy, because they don't have to look for a different solution - the public are paying for their laziness. And what of the unintended consequences - when I was talking about businesses going out of business, I wasn't referring to the plastics manufacturers, I was more referring to retailers that are already finding it tough - if they get hit with costs into the millions to deal with yet another tax, or yet another way of working they will cut costs somewhere else - Tesco have only just announced that they are laying off thousands of people in recent weeks. Don't labour under the illusion that the directors of these businesses will take a pay cut, they will simply make people redundant or shut shops to reduce their costs.

                      And whilst I take @andrews point about increased segregation of products, all that actually does is make it easier for the waste companies - as in, they spend less and make more profits. The one thing that actually is quite good in my area, is the large recycling bins that we chuck all recyclables into and that then gets sorted at the waste management centre. The upshot is that a lot more goes into these bins; conversely, when we lived in our last house, we had a box for this, and a box for that, and a bag for the next thing and so on......... it was a complete faff, so a lot of the time stuff was walloped into a black bag and tossed into the bin. Again, if we are doing all the work for you, there is no impetus for you to innovate from within to look for new ways to separate stuff.

                      And I ask again - how can it be more environmentally friendly to have people taking bags/boxes of used bottles, tins, jars and so on to a recycling centre on a Saturday morning than it is having it collected with one vehicle? As for these machines - who pays for them (as if I need to ask)? And bluntly, if this is going to be the way of things, what exactly am I paying my taxes for?
                       
                    • Fat Controller

                      Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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                      Only this past weekend, I looked into a Hippobag to get rid of waste as we were gutting out the greenhouse/shed and ultimately ended up taking the shed down - - a large one, smaller than a small skip was over £240! Net result, was seven runs to the tip in a relatives diesel estate car, and two days of burning anything that would burn in a burner bin in the back garden. I'm sure that is so much better for the environment than having it taken to the tip or even collected by the council for a reasonable price.

                      I would love to know how much money they make out of the charges to dispose of stuff at the tip now, and then also know how much money is spent on cleaning up fly tipping.
                       
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                      • Redwing

                        Redwing Wild Gardener

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                        Last edited: Feb 19, 2019
                      • Freddy

                        Freddy Miserable git, well known for it

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                        I’ll only say this. Before the ‘bag tax’, we weren’t too bothered about hanging on to them. Now, they rarely get thrown away. It’s not because of the cost, as such, but about awareness. We’ve also taken to using ‘proper’ bags. If they put a tax on plastic bottles, the result (for us) will be the same. They will of course need to put the ‘returns’ machines in sensible places. As for the cost of these machines, does it really matter who pays for them? One way or another, we need to do something about the plastics that are polluting the planet. I think it’s time to stop looking for the negatives, and embrace the necessary change. I’m no eco warrior, far from it, but it seems like common sense to me. Left to ’our’ devices, we don’t make very good choices, imo. No one wants more taxes, including me, but to me there’s no denying it’s effective when it comes to these types of issues. Just look at the reduction in cigarette smoking. Aren’t we all a bit more careful with our fuel because of the cost?
                         
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                        • Fat Controller

                          Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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                          @Redwing of course I will answer - that is what a discussion is about, surely? The mocking or disdain part is correct - but not toward people who care about the environment, or do their bit to use less, and handle their waste in the best way; it was toward the policy makers, and the so called specialists/experts (and the politicians) who drive these sort of policies into play without a thought of the consequences of their actions.

                          Again, I am not saying that action shouldn't be taken - I too feel that we should use less plastics (amongst other things), but why is that action always TAX? How does money clean the air or the ocean, particularly when it simply disappears into government coffers?

                          Taking the bag tax as an example - now this one, we were somewhat ahead of the curve, as we had been using 'bags for life' for years, and whilst there may well have been a positive effect from it, the majority of the single use bags that are being issued are still plastic, as there has been little impetus for the manufacturers to change. There are alternatives - and one that I occasionally use at the wee Co-Op near work, which is bags made from plant starch that are fully compostable; once used, whack them in your home composter, and they rot back to compost. Somewhat ironically, we still get charged the 5p for them - - why?? And what would have happened if retailers and manufacturers had been otherwise forced to come up with alternatives?

                          @Freddy - my point about paying for the machines is somewhat rhetorical - I know it will be us, either way. But, we are living in times when our councils say they cannot afford to carry out essential maintenance on schools, or to make our pavements safe for disabled people, or to house our homeless and here we are about to put an extra cost onto them to provide these recycling machines?

                          And you mention fuel - so what of the fuel to take our recyclables to one of these machines? I'd imagine that they wouldn't be placed in each street, so we would have to drive to them? What about people that don't or can't drive?
                           
                        • Freddy

                          Freddy Miserable git, well known for it

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                          The sensible place to put the machines would seem to be outside supermarkets? I imagine the vast majority of us shop in those?
                           
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