Gillian Gibbons and Sudan

Pro. I could pick huge holes in just about everyone's arguments but I won't bother. One thing I Will correct though. The NHS employs exactly NO cleaners. Cleaning was put out to private tender in the early 90s. That's what your problem is. And I think I know more about the NHS than your nursing assistant brother. Admirable as that job is.

 

Strictly for the record. (as LoL would say - Peter - you are TOO technical :D ).

I worked for some time in the NHS as an accountant. Overseas visitors, who are treated by the NHS do generally pay their way. If they come from France or Poland, where there is the equivalent of the NHS in their own country, there is an arrangement with that country whereby the treatment is recorded and charged back to their own government. This covers nearly all of Europe, Canada, Australia etc. If there is no equivalent of the NHS in their own country, such as the USA, then they are charged as if they were a private patient, and sent a bill.

Now its true that some cases do fall through this net. For instance if someone from darkest Africa is taken ill and rushed to hospital, they are invariably treated even though they may have no money, and their country does not have a reciprocal arrangement with us. They will be sent a bill, but are not likely to pay it. But there are not many of these.

[ 07. December 2007, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: PeterS ]

 

If you have something to add, I for one would like to hear it John.
We have our say, but I dont intend to offend anyone.
As I always say, I say things as I find them.

Just a walk in my local town, these days, is like being abroad sometimes.
Even the shops have Polish signage, and special food counters.
Bet you wont find that in many other countries, we must be the most tolerant in the world.

 

A fair point John however it still boils down to Goverment funding or lack of it ie cheapest tender with minimall budget available.

 

I too worked for the NHS but not as an accountant Peter. The main thing which all governments seem to have overlooked, the Conservatives when they started it and the current lot when they continued it, is that private companies have to make a profit (I don't think they did overlook it really). I don't mean that in any judgemental way, it is simply a fact of life. They have to pay shareholders and so have to maximise profit. One way is to pay as low a wage as possible. Nothing to do with the NHS per se, nothing to do with foreign devils working for money that the British worker won't. I remember when the matron of a hospital with the sisters as deputies would check on the cleanliness of everything. They still do, as far as they can but the cleaners aren't worried about them finding fault. The cleaners' top bosses are sitting somewhere miles away, and even their supervisors a) are on low wage b) don't understand the difference between ordinary clean and clinically clean.

Hospital funding has never been higher. That is not govt. propaganda it is true. But where is it spent? On outside managers,who just don't understand health. My own trust appointed an ex US army colonel as chief executive some ten years ago who had done 'brilliantly' in the middle east. Last year he 'resigned'(�£1 million goodbye) because the trust was millions in the red. They are putting it right by economising, not on managers, but on closing depts. Our nearest A & E for 60,000 people (sorry Accident and Emergency) is 20 miles away. Some emergency. That is where this idiot govt is going wrong, and although (and I am never happy declaring my own politics) I would prefer to see a liberal (with a small L) Conservative govt. elected next time, I don't really have a lot of faith in them. Whitehall works the same way ,it doesn't matter who you vote for, the civil service always wins.

But for goodness sake before you blame all the problems on immigrants, just look at the facts not at the Daily Star. The fault is closer to home.

 

Everything you say makes sence to me John, nothing is clear cut and the NHS problems are very different from problems in other "industries".
I dont blame all our problems on immigrants, the governments are to blame, as you say.

I tend to view the immigrant/ migrant worker in the same light as credit.
The government have used both to prop up the economy for a good few years now, cheap labour combined with massive spending of money that people dont have, has made Gordon Brown in particular, look good.
I somehow think it might all be coming to an end shortly though.

As for the Daily Star, I dont think they go into things quite this deep. :D

 

John I bow to yor knowledge.

 

Originally posted by Pete:

Sorry Pete. We could disagree here as well. Most European large cities are full of foreigners, the most famous for it being Marseilles. 65% of the population is North African. Not saying it's a good thing for the inhabitants. But it's true.

 

Hi all, late as per.

Totally agree with you John. if you look at other points i have put, i agree. as i say, i am not rasist, agist or anything. i am fed up with out being to go out without being worried.

i used to think anyone could go anywhere. i don't live bad place, but i've heard of them - why, not because they are 'different' read the papers about the 'west end' of newcastle.

we are a little island, i hope anyone on here will appreciate that. can i say something:-


Great Britain.

 

Yes John, your right about European cities.
But I dont believe the locals are quite so tolerant as we are, and that is the trouble, that I believe, lays ahead of us.

 

Well. The French, and Germans do have their problems with people going out and starting fires etc. WE don't have that we just have....Toxteth etc. The main problem with the EU is that we stick to the rules (usually) and a lot of other countries only stick to the rules when they want to. But again, that's our government to blame. And don't think I am just having a go at the current government. Have you ever read Maastricht?(great light reading). That was the biggest sellout ever - by Mrs Thatcher! That's why I don't entirely believe the current cons. when they shout for a referendum. All politicians are economical with the truth,or to put it another way....they lie like hell. Best thing to do is keep changing governments. They are usually O.K.for a couple of years. :D

 

I agree on keep changing governments, but, that way you actually get nowhere, as the incoming government changes absoluetly everthing the out going one did.
My mess of a pension scheme is a good example of that, amongst other things.
Not sure what Toxtheth was about. We tend to have the immigrants rioting (Brixton), whereas in Europe its more the locals rioting against the immigrants.
Although, I think Paris is having real problems with their influx.

 

About time france got some problems with imagration, payback me thinks for the songate nonsesnse.

 

Personally I dont blame the French for the Sangatte, problems, they should be blaming us. Afterall its our stupid goverment's "open door" policy that has created the situation whereby they all think that they just need to cross that channel and they are "in", and its very unlikely that they will ever be "out", again.
If I were French, I would probably be helping them on their way.

 

Blimey, i've wanted to respond to this topic again but am afraid i will be 'labelled' too.

i agree with what you have said, all of you, to some degree. how hard is it to stay level headed about this? we all have points of view.

Right, to get you really going now.....does anyone read/agree with Jeremy Clarkson? i love his column in the Sun (don't always agree with what they print, but only get it once a week).

don't always totally agree with him though just love the way he throws pc out the window.

what do you think? he's had alot of opinions on immigration etc.

cheers