Should I go for this plot?

We decided not to use weed killer on the allotment. We have used a combination of covering with the woven anti weed fabric and digging. My 16 year old grandson has been an amazing digger and so has my daughter. We have a half plot and dug out beds 6'x4'. Because of the amount of couch grass we sliced off the top as much as possible and stacked it in one corner to compost- in my experience turf makes excellent compost. It seemed an endless job at first but now is all planted up although the areas between the beds are still very weedy and have to be regularly strimmed.
Although as has already been said everyone must choose their own way, the indiscriminate use of weed killers such as glyphosphate is widely recognised to be a factor in the sad disappearances of our wild bees and birds. If possible please think about digging! Dig one bed at a time and plant it up- this way you can see the results of your work, it doesn't just seem like endless slog.
We have recently taken over another heavily overgrown 1/2 plot covered with thistles, brambles and couch. My son- in- law attacked it vigorously with his machete and the strimmer, and we intend to plant dwarf root stock fruit trees and soft fruit, and keep the areas between grassed. Hopefully we can get some fruit trees in this Autumn.

 

Although I fully agree with you that each should choose their own path with regard to chemicals, and I laud anyone that manages completely without (we used Roundup on the vegetable patch just-the-once at the outset, and have not used any Pesticides in the 8 years, or so, since)

However, I must take issue with your statement that Roundup is a factor in disappearance of Bees and Birds as I have seen absolutely no scientific reports of this. I would be very keen to know of any (i.e. proper peer reviewed science, rather than the many Rant sites that exist as anyone can knock one of those up on a wet Saturday afternoon!)

Roundup used to be toxic to aquatic animals as the adjuvants (rather than the Glyphosate) in Roundup were mildly toxic but were inclined to concentrate and build up in aquatic environments.

But the latest formulations of Roundup (specifically the Monsanto brand, rather than the generics) no longer have that toxicity - indeed, the new formulations of Roundup are no longer even labelled as Hazardous as their toxicity is so low (which I regard as a good thing for anyone who does choose to use them, as that has to be safer for the person applying them too )

Do please post any links to scientific journals / reports of Roundup damage to wildlife, but in the absence of them I think that Roundup is a very safe chemical. It was first used in the 70's, is now used worldwide to the tune of hundreds of thousands of tonnes, so lots of long term exposure tests have been made.

I appreciate and respect your view to avoid it, and indeed if people can cover the soil to suppress weeds and then dig that is definitely best (although digging isn't strictly necessary, the "lasagne" method can be used to convert virgin, weed-infested, land to operational without chemicals OR digging ) but I am very keen that folk that want to start growing veg are helped to be successful, and as such if Roundup overcomes the initial hurdle of weeds, and increases the chance that Newbies don't give up their Plot in the first year then I think its a valid tool in the garden shed

 

First of all to Jungle Jane, we have limited time to spend at the allotment, mainly Sunday afternoons. As we have the greenhouse we also have to water during the week.
Nevertheless this year after the mammoth dig we have harvested salads, beetroot, many peas, and broad beans. Potatoes are ready to be dug, and onions have just been laid out to dry. So whatever method you use, clear one bed at a time, good luck and we will be waiting to see how you get on! You look to have an excellent plot and are very lucky to have the shed and soft fruit- I am envious.
With regard to dig or no-dig, I am all in favour of no-dig as I myself physically cannot dig. The plot we have is heavy clay and after removing the top layer of weeds, some digging was essential as the ground was very hard and we wished to incorporate as much compost as possible to start on the process of breaking up and improving the soil. We had a large composter full of home made compost ready to go, but had to buy some in. Believe me, we will dig as little as possible, and I recognise that not everyone has a fit and healthy, not to say very willing, 16 year old to help!
Finally with regard to weed killer- I was careful to say that I believe glyphosphates 'play a part' in the frightening disappearance of birds and bees (and other insects) from our countryside. It is the indiscriminate and heavy use that Kristen himself quotes, that I worry about- this causes lack of habitat and diversity, and hence the harm to wildlife. I am not a ranter and simply believe that each of us can do a little to help.

 

I've never tried Lassagne method, and I personally doubt if one were to start in the Spring there would be time to get Up & Running in that season (on hard/clay ground), but apparently even with rock solid / heavy clay it is possible to start with no digging. My expectation is that one would need to start in the Autumn to give the whole winter for the process to work, prior to planting in the Spring. I also wonder whether Newbies would actually succeed via that route? I see old-hands advocating it, but my view is that they are more likely to have loads of compost / manure etc. readily available and to understand what they are aiming for and thus influence the process, though their experience. But maybe Newbies can be successful via that route from the get-go - it would certainly be a lot less work than the conventional route, and fit with my desire that Newbies should have a successful first season and thus continue, rather than be overwhelmed and give up

Sorry, but to me that is not the same as what you said earlier "glyphosphate is widely recognised to be a factor in the sad disappearances of our wild bees and birds" which I have not seen any published scientific evidence for. I'm very happy for anyone to correct me on that point though.

I would personally prefer a world where we didn't have these complex chemicals with Cause & Effects beyond the wit of man to predict as has been proven time & again, from Thalidomide to Creosote being banned and now found to have had no demonstrable harmful effects (but it has not been reinstated ... so we now have more complex chemicals being used in its place and they may well turn out to be more damaging).

 

I am intrigued by the lasagne or lassagne method- will have to look it up!

We started on the allotment in March. This is why we really had no alternative to digging to get started this year. Weed killers (such as glyphosphates) can only be used on green growing material and we didn't want to wait any longer, the couch grass was already showing signs of life, and the dead growth was knee high. So we strimmed as much as we could to retard growth (and gain access!) and dug the first bed-sliced off the weeds, sprinkled compost. I used a trowel to spread the compost a bit and to dig holes for the potatoes-the ground really was that hard. Each time we had a bed with soil exposed I had the task of mixing compost with the lumpy clay soil and planting our peas and beans which we grew at home.

Having a new and overgrown plot is very daunting. Getting some plants in is the best thing! I've never dealt with clay soils before, but it has loads of worms in and the soil in the plots around is very productive so we think things will be OK.

 

Thank you. Here's a link to the work in progress thread I started a week back.

http://www.gardenerscorner.co.uk/forum/threads/my-allotments-work-in-progress.70482/

 

My beds are all in place now, so too late for me to try sadly ... I have a book, bought mack in the 70's!, about composting which, although it doesn't talk about Lasagne, talks about just putting raw vegetable waste directly onto beds, and on areas where you want to make a bed. Beechgrove last week was mulching a young tree with some left over balls of knitting wool (not sure why they were "waste", but that's a separate debate )

I started off with a one-time spray of Roundup, then the local farmer ploughed the plot for me, and I hired a thumbing big rotavator ... and then over the years I have piled on manure etc. I have raised beds, never walk on them, and use minimal cultivation.

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This year I've started growing through weed suppressing fabric (e.g. Mypex). The early crops were planted without, but next year I'm going to use it on everything. I have a strict planting & growing regime, refined over the years, so I grow the same number (more or less-ish!) each season, so I have taken the required length of Mypex for each "crop", added a bit extra for a few more plants, in case I grow a bit more next year, and then planted through it. Tough bit will be labelling them when I take them up in the Autumn so I know which is which next year

There's a recent thread where we've been discussing how we've been getting on

http://www.gardenerscorner.co.uk/fo...-using-weed-suppressing-membrane-mypex.68728/