London in literature (addressed to those who are familiar with london).

Hi to everybody.
I expecially ask those who are familiar with London or they think they are (for they live in, have been living in or simply they well know).
The topic could be named: "London in literature and London's historical places".
As it occurs when reading "places-ambiented-books", we can run into geographical places, city places or city streets.
Sometimes, mayebe if those books refer to passed-by times, those places or place names can exist no longer.
I'm currently reading Sherlock Holmes and, as I said, I sometimes happen to run into London places names (that's actually one of the reason why I'm reading it. Because I like to read about those places that I used to see when I was living in London as a stranger italian worker).
So I'd like now to mention some of those "London places".
I reference them by indicating the book author, the title, the chapter and the sentence where I encountered the city place.
So, here we go !

1. PINCHIN LANE
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
"The Sign of four"
Chapter 6: "Sherlock Holmes Gives a Demostration".
"When you have dropped Miss Morstan, I wish you to go on to No. 3 Pinchin Lane, down near the water's edge at Lambeth."

2. KNIGHT'S PLACE
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
"The Sign of four"
Chapter 7: "The Episode of the Barrel".
"We had traversed Streatham, Brixton, Camberwell, and now found ourselves in Kennington Lane, having borne away through the side streets to the east of the
Oval. The men whom we pursued seemed to have taken a curiously zigzag road, with the idea probably of escaping observation. They had never kept to the main road if a parallel side street would serve their turn. At the foot of Kennington Lane they had edged away to the left through Bond Street and Miles Street. Where the latter street turns into Knight's Place, Toby ceased to advance but began to run backward and forward with one ear cocked and the other drooping, the very picture of canine indecision."

3. WESTMINSTER STAIRS
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
"The Sign of four"
Chapter 9: "A Break in the Chain".
"Well, then, in the first place I shall want, a fast police-boat -- a steam launch -- to be at the Westminster Stairs at seven o'clock."

Where are those places located ??? Are they "invented" (fancy places) ??? Do they still exist ??? Have they changed name ???
Can we say something about them ???
In the times to go, when I will happen to read about other London/Britain places, also when reading other authors books, I will keep on asking about them in this thread.
Thanks !

 

Are you wanting to know if any of those places are real places or just made up? They might be based on real locations, just the name changed (Agatha Christie did that a lot as well) - Westminster Stairs could refer to any of the many passageway steps, mostly located in Wapping and the East End, that lead from the main road or embankment, down onto the Thames. But I don't know of a real Westminster Stairs.

Kennington Lane and Miles Street are nowhere near the Bond Street (in Mayfair) though. Both are firmly located in South London.

 

I agree with Sussex here. The locations are real but the street names or anything too 'real' are changed to stop people being offended or being identified. Of course things may be exaggerated to make a good story but that's what makes a good book. I love Sherlock Holmes and Agatha Christie.

It's amazing to think that Conan Doyle caught so many peoples imaginations. His original articles were in a newspaper that made so many people buy it. Look up how he got to write his books, that's really interesting too.

cheers

 

The Westminster Stairs are mentioned in Pepys:

http://www.pepysdiary.com/p/1172.php

Wiki has quite a lot of other information of watermen's stairs:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watermen's_Stairs

I was watching 'The Creeping Man' from 'The Casebook of Sherlock Holmes' the other night. Watson is advised always to carry a firearm east of Aldgate. Still sound advice, methinks.

 

Well said, that lady.

 

I used to live East of Aldgate! Nothing wrong with the area - proper Londoners, although sadly dying out now, what with the rich moving into the newly converted apartments in the former Docklands and the newly gentrified, but sadly sanitised Spitalfields Market and pricing out the residents. Oh and you forgot Columbia Road Flower Market, THE area to buy your plants on a Sunday morning. And how about Shoreditch, Hoxton and Wapping? Great areas and a far cry from the tourist traps of Leicester Square, Covent Garden and (shudder) Oxford Street. Oh yes, and flooded with Wren churches

I don't think Westminster Stairs are called that anymore. Probably a reference to the Wapping Old or New Stairs.

 

I would think that "Westminster Stairs" are the ones that we can find aside the nowadays "Westminster Millenium Pier" (see the picture in attachment).
At those times, it must appear like that:

That's for sure. I did think the same thing.
If any, because I worked in "Saint Christopher Place" that is just close to Bond Street. And, of course, I used to get off the train at the Bond street tube station stop. So, I well know "Bond Street".
It is defeneteny located north of the River whereas Kennington Lane and Miles Street are, as you said, south of the River.
By the way, do you sometimes refer to all the places located on the south bank of the River as the ones located on the "Surrey side" ?
Just read this excerpt still from Sherlock holmes, The sign of four, Chapter 10: "The End of the Islander".
"That is Jacobson's Yard," said Holmes, pointing to a bristle of masts and rigging on the Surrey side."
I guess that "Surrey side" means: "south bank of the Thames" (of any reach).
Indeed, we have "Surrey Quay", in "Rotherite", south of the River, after the Pool, not far from the docklands in the "Isle of dogs".
We also speak about "Surrey docks" when referring to the Rotherite docks, ponds, waters, basins, etc...
Still, "Surrey water", in the Rotherite docks.
Anyway, is "Surrey side" an expression still used nowadays or it rather belongs to the gone-by times ???

It does. I do not know why. Probably - I guess - that's because, during the times, it has been built a representation of London as a result of many moovies, cartoons, books, fictions ambiented in London and all of them stressing the same "common places": the London fog, the London drizzle, the London five o' clock tea-break (when the Big-ben sounds the hour), etc.
Furthermore, the Londoneers and the british people on the whole are very concern about their traditions and their symbols (the taxi-cabs, the red double decker buses, the red phone-boxes, etc).
All these things, I guess, enhance the fascination for the city of London and raise an interest in all things related to its history and/or its fictional representation in the old ages (expecially in victorian ages).

I see.
As far as I am concerned, I am most oriented to those books talking about Victorian London.
For two reasons.
The first one is because in those ages the Industrial Revolution broke up.
That was a turning point that marked the beginning of modern times.
(Probably nearly as the invention of the wheel was).
All that occurred in those times in London and in Britain.
The second reason is because at those times London was the capital city of a large empire streaching as far east as to India, for example.
In all the foreigner people (as I am) imaginary - I guess - there is the Victorian London.
In the same way - I guess - as in all the people imaginary there is the Eifel tower when thinking about Paris, the Colosseum when thinking about Rome or the Red Square when thinking about Moscow...
Those are "common places", if you like...

 

I lived in London for nine years and never once heard the South Bank being referred to as the 'Surrey Side'. I think it might be a hangover from when London proper only referred to what is now the City of London and south of the river was Surrey (I guess it is still, but the area is now part of Greater London). The same was as west of say Westminster was known as Middlesex.

Don't get too romantic about Victorian London. Yes, it was a time of great leaps and bounds and enormous wealth poured into the city, generating a huge building boom. But only a tiny fraction benefited from these improvements. The majority of the population lived in squalor that nowadays you would see in the third world slums.

 

I would have guessed that a little.
Still by reading Sherlock Holmes.
When Doctor Watson describes the peoples living in the various rough suburbs (always by night and with poor weather... . Almost Never in a sunshine day...).
Also when he talks about a barefeet "dozen dirty and ragged little street Arabs" (the Baker street irregulars).
But - I would say - those times were completely different times from nowadays. At all latitudes...
Also when I listened to my grandparents talks, I hear of daylives consisting in very hard life-conditions...
When the sun set, people used to go to bed because no more activities were possible without the day-light (yes they had oil-lamps, but...).
In winter-times in northern Italy where I live, they use to sleep near the cattle to get warm. And that was even as late as 100 years ago or later...
So, we must compare it to the general world situation at those times...

 

Surrey Side has always had a rather louche reputation; theatres was once banished to this area (they were considered far too immoral for the City which, as we all know, still upholds the highest standards of behaviour). There remains a lingering snobbery about the 'right' and 'wrong' side of the Thames. South London, where I spent my childhood, is definitely the 'wrong' side - although the house price explosion has softened this distinction somewhat.

The East End was (and remains) the place where impecunious immigrants - like my ancestors - started out. My family did the classic immigrant hop, starting in Whitechapel and then moving out to the suburbs. They spent their lives trading up until they reached the nirvana - or utter tedium, depending on your point of view - of Chislehurst Village and Beckenham.

 

Do I detect a trace of sarcasm there?:hehe:

As I said, I lived in London for nine years, most of which was either in South or East London. I find North London a strange place by comparison, although I do admit there are one or two nice areas. Usually overpriced though! I do wonder if the lack of tube lines (until fairly recently) may have contributed to the SOuth being looked down upon as well? Even taxi drivers wouldn't always go south of the river.

 

Sarcasm? Moi? :hehe:

Trying to persuade a cabbie to venture into South London at the end of a long evening was always a very boring experience - eye-rolling, 'more than my job's worth', etc etc. Anyone would have thought you were trying to book a trip to Marrakesh at short notice. If there were several of us we sometimes risked unlicensed minicabs, on the basis that the driver probably couldn't axe all of us to death. The driving was sometimes scary, however.