finger print of God

Discussion in 'The Muppet Show' started by redstar, Sep 11, 2011.

  1. redstar

    redstar Total Gardener

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  2. ARMANDII

    ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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    Well, I confess, Redstar, that I'm not a believer in God as man portrays him/her. and the assertion that man is built in God's image is only a arrogant and foolish statement strengthening my disbellief. But, when I go out into the garden, and am absently mindedly looking at a flower, it always gives me the disturbing thought and conviction that the design, the function, the beauty and artistry, and the way it fits into the natural system of life cannot be an accident or spurious chemical reaction. There is intelligence behind it all but I'm not intelligent enough to know what.:D
     
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    • redstar

      redstar Total Gardener

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      Your so right ArmandII. It would also seem that as more discoveries are made there seems to be a theme that we are all connected to everything. And when man kind distroys one of the connections it has a rippling effect. And more and more I see that with discoveries, if we keep our eyes open, all discoveries can in one way or the other assist all of us to better ourselves.
       
    • Phil A

      Phil A Guest

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      Its all variations on the same basic building blocks. Mathematics and the way atomic structures combine to form compounds that life is made from. There probably is a finite number of different forms, but there are so many possible variations it seems infinite.

      A thing that occured to me recently is the difference in skeletal structures in fish, although they have a skull and a spine in common, there are many distinct different layouts, suggesting that their common ancestor must be very ancient indeed.

      If you look at the mammal's skeleton, its all a variation of the same theme thats been adapted to different uses, our fingers are the bat's wings or the whale's fins(Whales had hind legs 17 million years ago, now absorbed back into the body)
       
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      • ARMANDII

        ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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        you're right, Ziggy, about the blocks of life and maths/numbers being part of the design and structure of things. I have just watched a program on TV about the way Fibonacci numbers are in the formula of designs of animal, structures, plants, chemical etc on earth and also in the Stars, planets, galaxies etc of the Universe. Quite mind blowing stuff for a disbeliever of a man made God like me.

        You're right, Redstar, the damage we humans do, destroying the natural environment and the natural balance of things, has a domino effect that we will regret. We shout about the dangers of it all enough but do little to stop it. The power of metal discs and paper, the bottom line of Nations and companies financial books count for more it seems. God [if there is one] help us all!!!

        The one thing I'm curious about, which Ziggy brought into the Thread is evolution. Different Species take different forms, evironments, etc in which to survive. But what causes that and the change that mostly takes place when circumstances for species change and do so so that they can survive. I know people say "Oh, it's Nature" or "Well, it's Evolution" but that doesn't answer my curious question. Is there some persistent "ethereal" intelligence which will initiate a change in whatever organism it is that is faced with a change in climate or whatever?:scratch:
         
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        • Phil A

          Phil A Guest

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          Its more to do with the diversity within a species, some things work good in their environment and have been around for millions of years, bees for instance, they've probably been around pretty much since flowering plants evolved about 400 million years ago, the oldest bee fossil we know of is 100 million years.

          In that time there will be a lot of genetic mutations, same with any species, thats why we don't all look the same.

          When something changes in the environment, the group within the species most able to cope with it will be the survivors that pass their genes on, so gradually (Or Suddenly, in the case of the ammonites, there were hundreds of types, but only the Nautilus survived the asteroid, if the Nautilus hadn't have evolved before the asteriod hit, the species would have been lost forever) the species will change untill that group is the dominant one.

          Take our species, we existed side by side with the other human race for 4 million years.

          At some stage, the original humans mated with the Neandertals to produce us, a hybrid. It seems we got more out of the union than the Neandertals as they died out, I think it was 30.000 years ago, could have been longer.

          So its not so much as some etherial force poking species with a stick as the natural variations being able to cope with change and survive.

          I've had this conversation time and time again with the Jehovah's Witnesses, but i'm pretty sure they only come round for the tea & biscuits.
           
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          • ARMANDII

            ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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            "!

            I see your point, Ziggy, about variations and suchlike, but that points to an "accident of circumstances" brought about by accidental or social interbreeding. What is making my brain do a dance is such changes where for example the Cane Frog which was imported to Australia from Hawaii to deal with the bugs in the Australian crops.
            The Hawaii Cane Frog had short legs as it didn't have to travel far in the semi-jungle terrain of the Island. But when it got to Australia it was having to travel longer distances over open ground to catch food. So over ten years or so it grew longer legs to adjust to the problem. That's the thing I'm talking about, what intelligence caused that to happen. What said "hang on a minute, this frog needs longer legs, I'd better do something about it!"? There has to a biological program intelligently installed within organisms that will mutuate, change, that organism to meet the problem. Gene Mutation is, I think, a different matter.
             
          • Phil A

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            No my friend, it didn't grow longer legs in the way you are perceiving it.

            Frogs have an amazing mortality rate, out of the thousands that are born only a few survive. The little ones from a big brood would have a range of differences, it was the ones with longer legs that had a survival advantage, they lived while their brothers & sisters died, passing the longer leggedy genes on so the next generation had that advantage too.

            Thought of another example, there is a moth that lives in the uk, forget the name but i'm sure the Jehovah's would rather it didn't exist.

            It had a light and dark varience. During the industrial revolution when the buildings were covered in soot, the light one got picked off by birds and the dark one became the dominant form.
             
          • ARMANDII

            ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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            Mmmmmmm, sounds good, Ziggy, but according to the Biologists there were no longer legged frogs in the eggs that were brought in. They were artificially raised in batches as short legged frogs and once established were released in pilots batches. There were mortalities amongst them but not to that extent. In fact it went the other way where they proliferated beyond control and became the plague they are now. The legs did grow longer granted among the short legged frogs, but that was a response to having to travel greater distances to obtain food and obviously overtime the short legged frogs were phased out. Putting it down to the chance of having long legged frogs in the released batches who would have had to have been in such numbers as to give a good chance of survival. The frogs although out of control were monitered in an effort to get them back under control and it was recorded that the leg bones were extending quite dramatically generation by generation.
             
          • redstar

            redstar Total Gardener

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            One thing I can count on is some good hardy discussion. Sometimes wish we could all meet and have a beer with these good discussions.

            Anyway, what about the Japanese Macaque Monkeys, living in snow. Surely an example of environmental evolution.

            Off Subject slightly---I recall staying in a bed and breakfast in Oregon called the Sylvia Beach Hotel, it was a writters bed and breakfast. We ate family style, the IQ of those at the table was wonderous. Reminds me of this small gathering here. One day I will go back, just loved that coastline.
             
          • ARMANDII

            ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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            A gentle question then, Redstar:D What's your definition of "environmental evolution", and what do you think drives it??:D:coffee: That beer sounds like a good idea!!:ideaIPB::cheers:
             
          • redstar

            redstar Total Gardener

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            That the species due to being locked into an environment that changed from what he known slowly adapted his/her body to thrive in that changed enviornment.

            We humans are in an environmental evolution now. Our bodies were made to do more work than we do today---physical work. But because of technology such as : cars, washing machines, planes, riding mowers, and other conviences we do not expel the calories we need to keep fit. Therefore we see a rising problem of obesity. And the technology of phones versus, walking over to your neighbor for a chat. All those conviences are against what our bodies not that long ago were meant to do. The re-location of peoples from different countries being introduced to different foods. Why does the Black American have the highest issue of high blood pressure---simply because the foods he was originally structured on were good for him, now in America the foods he choses are not good for him. And in this case and others its not just our great grandmother but many generations ago, and many generations into the future will need to happen before we also change.
            I think if we look at the diagnosis of diabetics, and we compare ages ago to now, we will find today there is much more refined sugar than ever, and also a rising number of people with diabetes. Allergies, another one, as the air pollution rises so do cases of allergies are triggered. So now the lungs in the human has to change to tolerate the issues of air pollution.
            Osteoporosis- we say it is of the elderly, yet the best weight bearing excerise you can do to counteract ostoporosis is walking, and we don' naturally walk anymore, we have to schedule it in to walk. I would love to do a study of the Amish people to see how much ostoporosis they have.
            Well that's all I have, got to get to work. Check in later. Enjoying a cup of coffee now.
             
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            • *dim*

              *dim* Head Gardener

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              this new documentary is currently causing a bit of a 'stir' on a large forum .... I found it to be very interesting ... and is 'loosely' related to this thread but also deals with free energy

              Thrive Coming Soon
               
            • Phil A

              Phil A Guest

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              I see your point, a process that tells the next generation what is needed, interesting.:scratch:
               
            • Phil A

              Phil A Guest

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              Humans that are descended from those who survived the ice ages are more prone to getting fat as its become built in to eat it to protect against cold.
               
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