Electric cars.

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by pete, Apr 7, 2021.

  1. pete

    pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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    Ok so its always been that cars have sold, to some extent anyway, on how much grunt they have, BHP etc.
    So how do they rate electric cars apart from how far they can go without having to plug it in for an hour I'm not seeing anything regarding performance or driving satisfaction.
    Most seem very bland and basically the best way to sneak up on pedestrians before scaring the living daylights out of them.
    Is it time that a man with a red flag should be walking in front of them.:biggrin:
     
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    • Fat Controller

      Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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      They can measure the horsepower of electric motors, but because the way that power is delivered is completely different to an internal combustion engine it is sort of meaningless. BHP is a bit of an odd one - take for example a 2-litre petrol engine with around 140bhp versus a 2-litre diesel with around 140bhp; which is quicker? Assuming that you don't have massive turbo lag, the diesel will win hands down thanks to higher torque.

      Electric motors are essentially that - torque and linearly delivered as well as they just keep pulling and pulling right to their limit. Modern electric and electric hybrids are a blend of performance and power consumption to try and keep us as happy as possible.
       
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      • pete

        pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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        Well thanks for the explanation, but surely if you compare one electric to another there has to be more than that to it.
        I was expecting something like Kw etc. and surely some out perform others in something more than battery power.
         
      • shiney

        shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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        Doesn't work very well with the members of my Grumpy Old Men's Club :old: :biggrin:
         
      • shiney

        shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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        I've been a passenger in a Tesla and it goes like a bat out of hell! From memory it had similar acceleration to a DB9 I was given a ride in - and much smoother.
         
      • Fat Controller

        Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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        The power of the motors should be contained in the spec for the vehicles - somewhere. The two useful metrics that we should really be looking at are 0-60 time and range. The 0-60 time will give an indication how rapid (Tesla) or not (Leaf) the car is, with range then being the dominant metric. The cold truth of the matter is that the vast majority of cars will do 0-60 in less than 10 seconds nowadays, but how often do we do that with them?

        Range and charging flexibility is still a huge issue for me, with seemingly only the more expensive ones being 'good' in that area and whilst rapid charging can be used on a longer journey, there are some cars that you cannot use that more than twice in succession (Leaf) and then must do an overnight trickle charge. Ironically, it is the likes of the Leaf that is currently the affordable choice for most of us as the rest are pretty well out of reach - having said that though, it now appears that Hyundai/Kia are getting really strong and I fully expect Volvo to be following on quite soon thanks to their parent company Geely also owning the likes of LEVC and so on. The likes of Ford need to get their act together as they are about to be left behind.
         
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        • pete

          pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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          So do they have a motor at each wheel or one central one, I know very little about them as I know I will never be able to afford one.

          Regarding the 0-60 thing that often gave an indication regarding overtaking.
           
        • gks

          gks Gardener

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          When buying a motor you should always go by safety first, so make sure it is fitted with these new special seat belt...:heehee::heehee:


          safe.jpg
           
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          • Black Dog

            Black Dog Gardener of useful things

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            Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy, my favourite subject :hapfeet:

            I followed the rise of electric cars since the renaissance by Tesla. Every model and battery type...

            Such I shame that I had to buy a "normal" gas powered car back in 2014 because there wasn't any electrical option back then that was actually affordable with an acceptable range.

            Horse power as we know it since the dawn of automobiles kind of fade out when it comes to electric cars. I try to force myself to use kilowatts as they are much more practical. A simple example:

            An electric car has a net battery (accumulator would be more precise, but battery stuck with people) capacity of 50 kWh and a motor with 100 kW power. So if it wasn't regulated or capped at a given speed (typically around 160-180km/h) and you would put the pedal to the metal from start to finish, it would drain your battery in about half an hour.

            After that you plug it in at your normal wall socket which peaks at about 2,3 kW/h charging capacity (I'm talking EU here, so this may vary from country to country). Technically this would charge your car in about 20ish hours from zero to full. You could increase that to about 7,2 kW/h by using CEE red (3 phases, at 16 Amps) reducing that time to about 7 hours. A wallbox could increase the charging rate even further to 11 kW/h (about the max power for a normal home) or even 22 kW/h (needs special wiring and written consent with your local power distributor)
            All that charging would use alternating current coming out of the socket and using the onboard charger built into most of modern electrical cars.

            Even faster is direct current going directly into your battery with peak loading power of more than 350kW/h, reducing charging times of said battery to less than ten minutes.

            I guess I lost track where I was going with that....
            Anyways it is a lot simpler if you use the same units for engine power, charging and capacity since they are directly connected.
             
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            • Black Dog

              Black Dog Gardener of useful things

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              Oh and something else, which was already talked about:

              Since electric motors use their maximum efficiency at any given speed, the acceleration is continuously applied. Combined with the fact it doesn't need a gearbox or shifting gears means that even "underpowered" electric cars can outrun high powered combustion engines on the first metres.

              I personally drive an electric scooter and it is a lot of fun to see the faces of people sitting in their big cars trying to overtake you. Simple twist of the handle and it shoots forward faster than they can switch gears. Sadly it's capped at 45 km/h but that's enough in the city. With 4 kW peak power and 70kg weight there are few things that accelerate faster. Oh, and it's dirt cheap. I pay about 85 Eurocents (1Dollar or 70p) for 100 kms worth of electricity (about 3 kWh).
               
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                Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
              • Jiffy

                Jiffy The Match is on Fire

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                I thought it was measured in wizz, the times i've driven elec vehicles they weren't fast and not much go, but then it was elec milk float and elec fork lift's :whistle:
                 
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                • Fat Controller

                  Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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                  Depends very much on the car - I think (think) the most common set up is to have motors for each wheel (not necessarily physically behind the wheel) as they are used as part of the braking system also for regenerative braking.

                  Cost wise, they are creeping down - the current Hyundai Ioniq are coming in at £35k-ish which is a shed load of money by anyone's standards, but when you consider the price of a new Focus or Astra.... They are really pushing the boundaries with their new version - Hyundai IONIQ 5 | The Electric Car Revolution Is Here

                  The range on that looks to be pretty much all that anyone would ever need (on charge should get you from one end of the country to the other) with blisteringly quick acceleration if you want it; some of the figures, such as the 18-min rapid charge time (to 80%) scare me as that has to be charging at something like 20kW; think of a motorway services where you may well want 20 or 30 cars charging at the same time - - that is a frightening amount of power, particularly so if something goes wrong (that sort of power makes one hell of a 'boom')

                  I also think that the days of us actually owning cars are all but gone and they will simply be leased. To be fair, that is the case even now - when we got our current car, I started off looking at Ford/Vauxhall/Nissan/Hyundai etc but as I wasn't walking into a dealership with cash on the hip and needing a car that had to be of the right size and shape for me to get in and out of bearing in mind my mobility (Vauxhall were out almost immediately on that score!), I was staring down the barrel of hundreds of pounds a month; for less each month I could get the car I currently have on a PCP deal - sure, it has a balloon payment at the end if I want to keep it, but do you really see diesel cars being viable and not taxed to hell and back by 2024? Fairly likely it will simply be flipped and into a hybrid or electric that is leased.
                   
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                  • JWK

                    JWK Gardener Staff Member

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                    The 0-60 is the best indicator, they are all pretty quick compared to a dinosaur powered car - even the new Leaf is good (the original Leaf was not a joy though). Go for a test drive and check them out as that's the only way. Don't test drive a Tesla though you will want one!
                     
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                    • Fat Controller

                      Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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                      The downside that nobody seems to be seeing (or admitting) at the moment is the cost of powering electric cars. As tax revenues from petrol/diesel sales fall, the government will need to get that money somewhere else. When folks have an electric bill of £700 a month landing on the mat, they might not seem as cheap to charge.
                       
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                      • shiney

                        shiney President, Grumpy Old Men's Club Staff Member

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                        An investigation into the current :whistle: cost of charging cars (not at home) is not far off the cost of petrol and diesel. It depends on the rate at which you want your car charged. I have the Which? report on it but don't know whether this link gives all the info in the report.

                        How much does it cost to charge an electric car?
                         
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