Masks - yes or no?

[QUOTE="IMO, dont really need one, [/QUOTE]

Ok, that is a fair comment. I understand your reasoning. To be clear, though - you're not saying you think it would be an actual DISadvantage, just not something you think you need?

 

[QUOTE="I can see that some people may find that they touch their mask and touch their face but it only takes a bit of conscious effort to stop yourself doing that. [/QUOTE]

I really am in two minds over this. Personally I agree with you - it can't be hard not to do so - but on the other, I'd hate to realize I'd done this absent-mindedly, and put people at risk. For instance, I'm assuming the fabric of a mask will collect more incoming microbes from people around me than my face. If I was operating a till and had handed people change after having touched the mask, it would mean I had put them in danger, so I can understand people's reluctance on that front - assuming, as I say, they are genuinely likely to touch it.

 

Agree re that and with the situation in Leicester. They are giving stern warnings here in Ireland too but we still have no daily deaths most days. WHO say there will be a second wave world wide as has started already. I am in the safest place in deep rural /island Ireland but have lost touch with two dear friends . one in the UK and one in Texas.

They are urging folk here to stay home for holidays; staycations. And Co Kerry is giving out E100 vouchers for attractions there.

 

Ok, that is a fair comment. I understand your reasoning. To be clear, though - you're not saying you think it would be an actual DISadvantage, just not something you think you need?[/QUOTE]

From the advice given, it suggests a face mask is only needed when in a indoor space with prelonged contact, public transport, a supermarket etc, and a face mask gives very little protection against catching it, but does stop the wearer spreading it, and the advice givers are reluctant to give anymore detail, in case it causes panic buying, saying that I pretty much stopped watching the news, got fed up with the likes of Piers Morgan shouting doom and gloom, and who's fault it is.

 

[QUOTE="
From the advice given, it suggests a face mask is only needed when in a indoor space with prelonged contact, public transport, a supermarket etc, [/QUOTE]

Does the advice include supermarkets? if so, I'm racking my brains as to why it hasn't been encouraged in the way it has for transport, and why staff aren't wearing them. I'm guessing for checkout staff, the Perspex screen acts as a mask (still doesn't suggest masks would be an active DISadvantage, though)

 

Went in the chemists just now, staff were wearing masks a couple of weeks ago but not now.
I see very few people wearing them.

I did grab a pack of 5 disposable face coverings when I was at the supermarket last week in case the media force the government's hand on this issue, as they do with most things these days , Pears Morgan is actually running the country, it's just that we haven't been told yet.

Anyway £1each, a rip off, but then don't we always get done.

 

[QUOTE=" in case the media force the government's hand on this issue, as they do with most things these days , [/QUOTE]

I'm trying to understand in whose interests it is for anyone to force the issue. These masks are not, so far as I can tell, the product of a mass corporate market, a nationalized industry, or anything particularly sinister, and I can't grasp why the media would want to force the issue. I'm actually very sympathetic to the anti-mask narrative in principle, because I'd very much like not to wear one, and I don't enjoy regarding any of my fellow citizens as uncaring on this issue - but the more and more research I do, the more folk I ask, the harder and harder I'm finding it to arrive at anything even remotely resembling a rational opposition based on empirical evidence and expert opinion. You said earlier that there was "No way," you would wear one unless the government forced you, and I'd just like to ask - would that still stand even if you did believe they did some good? Otherwise it sounds like there is no scope for altruism, only for accepting the government's decree.

 

Here we have to wear a mask on public transport, and are Strongly encouraged to wear one when indoors in public (shops, post office, etc). The government are considering making masks mandatory for shops - but already 90% of people, and at least 95% of staff, already do.

Generally, I find Belgians more considerate of other people, than people in the UK, so this doesn’t surprise me....

 

I'm trying to understand in whose interests it is for anyone to force the issue. These masks are not, so far as I can tell, the product of a mass corporate market, a nationalized industry, or anything particularly sinister, and I can't grasp why the media would want to force the issue. I'm actually very sympathetic to the anti-mask narrative in principle, because I'd very much like not to wear one, and I don't enjoy regarding any of my fellow citizens as uncaring on this issue - but the more and more research I do, the more folk I ask, the harder and harder I'm finding it to arrive at anything even remotely resembling a rational opposition based on empirical evidence and expert opinion. You said earlier that there was "No way," you would wear one unless the government forced you, and I'd just like to ask - would that still stand even if you did believe they did some good? Otherwise it sounds like there is no scope for altruism, only for accepting the government's decree.[/QUOTE]

Afraid I'm one oif those that hate being dictated to, the more they tell me what to do the less I go for the idea, it is, or was a free country but the nanny state now has control.
I only have to look around here and the majority of people dont wear them, so there is an awful lot of people who actually dont want to be forced into this.
I'm guessing most have their own reasons, its just not a nice thing to wear all the time you are out.
The queueing system has pretty much made going anywhere a drudgery and if they make you queue for everything and wear a mask its going to be one step too far, in my personal opinion

I'm all for those who feel threatened to do whatever they feel is right and what makes them feel safe.
Personally I dont think lockdowns are going to work as as soon as you let them off, one person infected and you are back to square one in a matter of days.

I dont know the answer, I dont think anyone does, but at some stage life has to go on.

 

[
I only have to look around here and the majority of people dont wear them, so there is an awful lot of people who actually dont want to be forced into this.
I'm guessing most have their own reasons, its just not a nice thing to wear all the time you are out.
[/QUOTE]

I began my whole research because I wanted to find reasons to corroborate my reluctance to wear masks. But almost all I've found are anecdotal reasons or things based on personal preference, or claims about CO2, immune systems and personal health, which have been comprehensively fact-checked and rebuffed when subject to expert analysis.

I am very wary of state control, having spent much of my working life working for the state and being well aware of the often insidious nature of what you call the nanny state. However, I believe your argument falls down on the following counts:

1. The state has been sluggish at best in "forcing" this issue. The PM and medical officials spent the first couple of months saying they could be harmful, the messages have been mixed since, and they still haven't made them mandatory except on public transport (even then, I'm assured by Northern Rail, a scarf will suffice.) I am worried, however, that recent flouting of social distancing and a probable second spike may see more authoritarian methods, including mandatory masking - which I do not want to see. I can't help thinking the quickest way to end these restrictions is to comply with guidelines to the max and get it over with asap. I am aware that may sound naïve, and I don't expect you to agree.

2. I'm racking my brains to understand how its in anybody's interests to shun an item of preventative health value, and, crucially, others' safety, just because the government advise it. I mean, the government/state/ are in favour of us having ambulances come to our aid if we are injured and I don't see any libertarians refusing that! If they do, it should be to refuse it for themselves, not others - and the whole point of the masks is to protect others, not ourselves.

3. I've got to say "its just not a nice thing to wear all the time you are out," is a disappointingly shallow reason (if you provided evidence they were actually harmful I could respect that) and is also irrelevant - you don't generally need to wear it when out, only in enclosed spaces, and if these people are anything like me they will only spend 15-20 mins at the supermarket. They can remove the mask as soon as they get home, or in the car. If that's too much hassle for the sake of possibly saving lives, then I just find that deeply depressing. I'm still hoping it isn't the case, and someone anti-mask can point out to me some concrete, evidence-based, health-related reason(s) why they don't agree with the use of these items.

 

[Generally, I find Belgians more considerate of other people, than people in the UK, so this doesn’t surprise me....[/QUOTE]

I am sorry to hear this (not that Belgians are considerate, but that we are seen as not), speaking as a Brit. All I would say is that in many cases it is confusion rather than callousness that has caused us not to wear them: I am not one of those who thinks the government's whole approach has been shambolic - on some counts I think they have done well - but on masks, it has been nothing short of ambiguous, and no strong case has been made for or against the masks at a senior level. I have only just recently decided to resume wearing them, and I suspect many people haven't even considered it. I do believe Britain is essentially a caring country, and in the course of my work I meet many people who actively choose to live and settle in Britain rather than any other country because for all our faults this still applies. I'm still hoping that the idea those not wearing masks are simply selfish will be dispelled by some anti-maskers providing concrete, science-based rationales, so that even if I don't agree I will know it isn't just because they don't care.

 

[QUOTE

I dont know the answer, I dont think anyone does, but at some stage life has to go on.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this, and I'm sure if it is seen not to have worked after a time people will indeed move on - it will be hard and almost impossible to actually pass a law making non-mask-wearing illegal, especially with a PM as small-l liberal as Boris (and not forgetting his well publicized distaste for facial coverings!) But I can't help thinking that, faced wth a pandemic of this magnitude, and wanting these restrictions over as soon as possible, anything is surely worth a try. We can't knock it til we've tried it, and we won't know how helpful or useless it is until more of us have tried, giving a bigger, wider, more empirical picture.

 

They have been wearing masks in the far east for years, mostly for pollution, but I think it started when they had their other two epidemics, Sars and Mers.
So evidence is probably there as to how effective they are, unless of course they dont give us any info.
I know I'm probably not addressing you original question with my answers @SimonZ , but as you can probably tell I have strong views on this, as with most things

Pubs are opening at the weekend and hairdressers, will it be deemed a good idea to wear masks in those two places?
If not then wearing them in other places appears to be pretty pointless, which is probably why the staff in the chemist shop, this morning, weren't bothering anymore.

The only thing I would say is if they were to make it mandatory in certain places as they have on public transport then it should be disposable masks only and bins outside of those building in which to put masks and gloves.
Old socks, converted into face coverings and put your pocket outside is totally pointless surely.

 

I'd like to address a point I made earlier, in which I may have come over as blase or judgemental regarding people abstaining from masks for health reasons, citing ashtma and anxiety in my examples. I've been thinking about this, and indeed was chatting to a checkout assistant who has asthma and doesn't wear them for that very reason just tonight, and I would like to backtrack on that particular point. I was speaking from a position of ignorance and did not realize the extent to which these health conditions can make masks dangerous - indeed, the authorities appear to have explicitly advised against in such cases. It did cross my mind to simply delete or edit my original post, but I think it serves the purpose of debate better to leave the evolution of our reasoning there for all to see wherever possible. For me, as an agnostic on masks who is instinctively against but pragmatically for, this whole issue has opened up new perspectives and made me challenge a number ofmy own assumptions.