Scottish Independance

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by Phil A, Sep 7, 2014.

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Should Scotland become independant?

Poll closed Sep 21, 2014.
  1. Yes

    5 vote(s)
    17.9%
  2. No

    23 vote(s)
    82.1%
  1. clueless1

    clueless1 member... yep, that's what I am:)

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    And a couple of decades later, it cost the British taxpayer more than 3 billion quid in compensation alone for the ill health that the miners suffered, and that's not including however many billion it cost the NHS trying desperately to keep them alive despite the fact that their lungs were chock full of filth. I'm not knocking it. It was probably right at the time, but we can't hold onto the past just for the old time's sake, if the thing we're holding onto kills people in the millions.
     
  2. Fat Controller

    Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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    Go to Castlemilk on a Saturday night, and it isn't just in history...... :biggrin:
     
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    • pete

      pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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      Good job Maggie shut the pits down then?
       
    • clueless1

      clueless1 member... yep, that's what I am:)

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      I think she did too much too quickly in that respect. The widespread hatred of thatcher doesn't come from the actual closing of the pits. I think former steel workers who also found themselves skint because of her brutal changes would feel a bit put out that all the emphasis is on the miners and none of the other workers whose lives she ruined.

      The problem is that she closed everything down without having a plan in place, or even any consideration, to make arrangements for all those she was going to affect to find other work.

      This is classic tory. Look after the rich, stuff everyone else. The pits were going, that was inevitable. They were unsustainable. The miners were right to ask for better pay and conditions. The legacy of the mines, approx 3 million cases of COPD on the later government's compensation scheme database is proof of that. But to give better pay and conditions would stop the mines making money. So they had to go. I'm not quite sure why British Steel had to be sold off too. As far as I know that was making money. But in any case, what should have happened is that any such scheme should have run over at least a decades, and should have included a program to fund new businesses, funded re-training opportunities for affected workers, and a mortgage assistance scheme to help all those those many thousands of people she was destroying to keep their homes. The trouble is, that sort of thing is distasteful to the rich tory loyalists who just want to know that somehow or other, without questioning how, their bit of the world keeps working for them.
       
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      • Sheal

        Sheal Total Gardener

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        For your information Clueless.....The union was formed after Queen Elizabeth I died and left no descendants. James VI of Scotland was then crowned James I of England being of Scottish and English parentage, his mother being Mary Queen of Scots and father Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley of England.

        I've been sitting on the fence reading this thread until now. I'm not going to give and answer on whether I think Scotland should become independent because I know and have studied it's history. I will say that it took many battles over many years before Scotland finally fell to the English and once again, even back then it was about greed, not for money, but because the English thought it was theirs for the taking. Any fighting amongst the Scots was about clan rivalry and nothing to do with the English. After all, hasn't England gone through civil war through the centuries as well! Although many think (particularly the English) history isn't involved in this present push for independence, I believe in the hearts of many Scots there is a feeling of wanting to take back what us, the English stole centuries ago. If the boot was on the other foot what would the English be thinking and feeling in the same position?

        I'm sitting here, an English person, living on a self governed semi-independent island which is owned by the English Crown having suffered the same fate as Scotland, it was also owned by the Scots in the past. I believe as small as it is, it could become fully independent, so why shouldn't the Scots be given the chance to give it a go, even as a trial period over a certain amount of years to see if they can make it work. Politicians in England don't give a toss about what is in the hearts of the Scots whether it be a yes or no vote on their part, as per usual they are thinking of money and power, that is as far as they are concerned the be all and end all.

        From what I've said above it looks as if I'd say yes for independence, believe me, I can see the pro's and con's of it, I'll remain on the fence. To be honest, knowing the Scottish and English history and the present day situation of both countries I wouldn't want to be in the shoes of the Scots, will they be voting with their hearts or their heads? We will have to wait and see.
         
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        • Scrungee

          Scrungee Well known for it

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          After independence, 8.3% of all illegal immigrants arriving at Dover should be bussed over the border into Scotland. It's important they get their fair share of everything.

          Anybody else notice the resemblance to these Halloween Medusas being sold at B&M?

          thatchers.jpg
           
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            Last edited: Sep 9, 2014
          • Loofah

            Loofah Admin Staff Member

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            That was simply the way things were globally at the time, and still is in many areas even now - the strong want to conquer. I really don't see any benefit to people crying about how the English 'stole' the land centuries ago, but I am English so obviously don't feel beleaguered particularly. For all we know it, in the dim and distant past it was always 'English' but records hadn't been invented so it's not documented (that was tongue in cheek by the way)

            I do not see why the Scots should be given the chance to go it alone at all - this is a union and the stronger for ALL parties for it, irrespective of how frustrated they are. This situation is arrived at from having weak politicians unable to argue or press their case effectively so they have decided to rabble rouse and create a split. If the Yes campaign are successful, what makes them think that the same politicians will be any better at governance than they were at effective case building? Should Scotland then find out it wasn't as simple as they thought and need a bail out, who foots the bill? The remainder of the UK as it will still fall under the Crown.

            I very strongly suspect, that Salmond has resorted to his actions out of weakness in ability to argue and has bet the farm on what has happened - last ditch announcement of 'new powers' for Sco'land as the rabble start to build in volume. (Always in the plan say Westminster. Was it heck!) He's nothing more than a provocateur. Should the Yes campaign win then he will be up to his armpits in trouble within weeks because he has no real plan.
             
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            • Phil A

              Phil A Guest

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              I thought Scotland joined the union because they were nearly bankrupt after a disasterous failed attempt to colonise America?
               
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              • Kristen

                Kristen Under gardener

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                You can't lay all that solely at the door of Maggie. The unions, in the guise of Scargill, were hell bent on power.

                The Germans had the same problem with their pits - lots of old mines not worth modernising, unprofitable, a need to move to greater mechanisation that only suited the bigger mines and so on. Their government worked with their unions to put in place a policy of moving people to other mines, early retirement and all the rest. That happened progressively from 1960 to 1980. Coal Mining will cease (well ... subsidies will cease) in Germany in 2018. Its also possible that the original plan had to turn-turtle on re-unification due to the widespread restructuring that took place at that time.

                Scargill was having none of that, wanting everyone to keep their job in their original pit for life, absolutely no pit closures, and so on

                If Scargill had been prepared to work out a plan that worked for both sides, rather than being hell bent on driving the Tories out of office instead, then I firmly believe we would have had a solution similar to the German one. Same outcome ... all pits closed ... but over a period of time that caused the least social disruption and social hatred.

                Same thing with transport. Tories fed up with Rail Unions holding the country to ransom, so instead of creating an integrated transport policy, which would have been really sensible and would now be a joy for travel and much MUCH greener than "one man one car" commuting, we instead had a policy of destroy the Unions in the short term, build more roads in the short term, and maybe, just maybe, build a transport policy later - still hasn't happened and with the vogue for privatisation has become as much of a shambles as union megalomania was.
                 
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                • longk

                  longk Total Gardener

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                  Nope - I blame Scargill equally. The Miners Strike was different in as much as this was as much about a personal feud (in both of the protagonists) as anything else.

                  No - some unions, but especially Scargill.

                  As someone who comes from a pit background the people on the street were realistic about the future until Scargill came along and promised them the earth. And be under no illusion, the intimidation tactics employed by factions of the NUM were beyond reproach. As was the dictat from Thatch to the banks to foreclose on miners in mortgage arrears - no ifs, no buts. I had a cousin commit suicide as a result of this.

                  Both sides needed to give and take but it was never going to happen.

                  This was another driver for rendering vast tracts of our coal reserves financially unviable for many decades to come. One less competitor was rather desirable to a newly privatised utilities sector.
                  The stupidity is that coal power need be no more polluting now than nuclear, oil or gas. The basic technology is used on millions of vehicles every day.
                   
                • Kristen

                  Kristen Under gardener

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                  Getting back on topic :heehee: that has a familiar, and current, ring to it!

                  Well I beg to disagree on that, if unions started out prepared to reach a compromise a lot more progress would be made. Maggie would not have felt it necessary to destroy them, so I lay far more of the blame at Scargills feet than Maggies.
                   
                • longk

                  longk Total Gardener

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                  Maggie was hell bent in destroying Scargill and as such the miners, their families and the communities were nothing more than collateral damage I'm afraid.
                   
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                  • Kristen

                    Kristen Under gardener

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                    Yes, that's my opinion too. But only because the unions had held the country to ransom year-after-year. If the unions had been prepared to reach a reasonable agreement, as the German unions did, Maggie would have had no need to destroy them - I'm sure she would have preferred to have spent the money that farce cost on something more productive.
                     
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                    • clueless1

                      clueless1 member... yep, that's what I am:)

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                      If Scargill was thatcher's only enemy, then why did she endeavour to destroy every working class family, whether they were in a mining community or not?

                      I remember the slogan "Maggie Thatcher Milk Snatcher". A simple thing, she withdrew the free milk for school kids, but it was just one small example of her attitude. It was under thatcher that BSC was privatised I believe. That's when the street I lived in went from being sort of ok, to financially stuffed, as straight away, almost every dad on the street got made redundant. It was thatcher that introduced poll tax. We joke about taxes now, but poll tax really was a tax on breathing. Having destroyed almost all the jobs, she then decided that anyone who was unemployed but attempting to get back into the workforce by doing a government training scheme such as YTS or ET, were not actually unemployed at all, so on about £35 per week, depending on which scheme you were on, you still had to find enough spare cash to pay your poll tax at about £1000 for the year.

                      When I was 18, unable to find work but wanting a career, or at least a job, I signed up for the Extra Tenner (ET - Employment Training) scheme. I received£29.50 dole + £10 for being on the ET scheme which was supposed to cover lunch and refreshments. So that's £39.50 per week. I still lived at home with my dad at the time, but had I been independent, I'd have got housing benefit to pay for a bedsit, but back then at least, it didn't cover the whole lot, so some of the £39.50 per week would have gone on rent. There was no benefit for gas, electric and water, so you had to find that out of the £39.50 if you had your own place, then out of probably £25 per week left after that, you still had to pay poll tax, albeit at a reduced rate (but you were not exempt, as thatcher's government ruled that if you were on a training scheme, you were not really unemployed). The trouble is, there were virtually no jobs, so ET was the way to go if you didn't want to just rot away. Many (including myself to some extent) saw it more as a social club, a reprieve from the depressing boredom and lack of self worth that comes from sitting doing nothing. Meanwhile, thatcher's government could point to statistics that showed unemployed to be lower than it actually was, as people on government training schemes were 'employed'. Worse. If you took time out of your course for job hunting, you could get kicked off it. If that happened, you could be put on "severe hardship allowance", £25 per week. If on the other hand the scheme found you a placement, you had to take it, otherwise again, welcome to life on £25. It was the perfect way to keep people down. You did what you were told if you wanted any life at all. Meanwhile, outside of the poorer areas, people can sit there reading the Times or the Telegraph and see how thatcher's government has got so many thousands out of unemployment and back into work, and how the government is doing everything it can, through training schemes and such, to boost the economy and improve lives in the communities she destroyed.
                       
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                        Last edited: Sep 9, 2014
                      • Loofah

                        Loofah Admin Staff Member

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                        [cough] So, should Scotland become independent?
                         
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