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Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by Tidemark, Aug 17, 2024.

  1. ViewAhead

    ViewAhead Total Gardener

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    @Obelix-Vendée, the US does not have decent free healthcare or good state education because it does not believe these things should be on offer for free. There is not enough scope for profit, so they don't do it. It is a political choice.

    War may look costly, but actually that is only for taxpayers. It is massively profitable for the wealthy, which is why conflict must be constantly maintained.

    @Fat Controller, the US has the world's most expensive private health care ... and the greatest number of deaths because of healthcare errors and mishaps.
     
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    • gks

      gks Total Gardener

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      I never said you did, I pointed out that, I do not always agree with everything in the West. You come here and tell others that we only point out the negatives of the EU and here you are doing the same about the UK and other countries.
       
    • Obelix-Vendée

      Obelix-Vendée Total Gardener

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      @ViewAhead the US doesn't do it because they're brainwashed into beieveing it's Socialism and a short step from there to Communism and more government control. They also think it'll mean a huge hike in taxes, forgetting that they won't have to spend on private health insrance and go bankrupt when they do get the bills in case of a serious accident or illness. health cost bankruptcies are a significant occurrence in middle class USA.

      Compare spending, tax levels, health, education and job secuirty levels between Norway and the US and guess which is better!

      Norway cf USA.jpg
       
    • Fat Controller

      Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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      I don't disagree that their private health care is expensive, nor that they don't have the best outcomes - hold our NHS against it as a comparator on the basis that the US can afford $5bn yet can't afford healthcare though... our beloved NHS costs a hell of a lot more than $5bn for a population the size of the US, and I most certainly wouldn't hold our NHS up as any sort of high-bar when the complete opposite is true.
       
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      • Obelix-Vendée

        Obelix-Vendée Total Gardener

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        No @gks I point out negatives where I see them and positives that are worth considering but seem to be anathema to many Brits both at home and abroad. There are plenty of Brits living here for many reasons including cheaper hosuing, more space, better weather but who continue to denigrate the way the French and Spanish manage things. Ludicrous and disrespectful.

        There's lots to admire in the UK but the Brits have a tendency to deprcate success or intelligence rather than embracing the positives.
         
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        • Obelix-Vendée

          Obelix-Vendée Total Gardener

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          @Fat Controller that was $5.6billion in just 2 days. Surely enough over a year to fund literacy or health care.

          The NHS needs fixing, if only to concentrate of preventing avoidable illnesses which would be cheaper than fixing them and improving efficiency generally to include best practice so there is no postcode lottery and respect for all its patients. It's still better than the total lack of care available to many US citizens because of their location, race, income.
           
        • Fat Controller

          Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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          It may be enough over the course of a year - however, that would then be ongoing, whereas the expenditure on war is relatively short term. Beside, it is not an either/or situation... look what has happened to the UK where in the past decade or so, the budget has gone from circa £130bn up to £185bn for our NHS and still it yells it is underfunded... meanwhile, our defence capabilities have been utterly decimated to the point it took us over two weeks to get one ship out to the Middle East. If any country (Russia, China being two prime candidates) actually chose to have a pop at invading us, we're knackered.

          I cannot comment on the US healthcare accessibility as I haven't used it - nor, frankly, do I give a toss. What I can comment on is the NHS as it has let me, my family, my friends and my colleagues down time and time again. It goes WAY beyond improving efficiency and preventing avoidable illness - it is so bad now it is at a level where basic competence isn't even there. Only this week, one NHS trust has had a mental health hospital closed displacing almost 300 patients to other areas because the failures in care were so critical that the CQC had no choice but to call a halt. It is downright dangerous and the constant burying of heads in the sand, holding it up as though it was some sort of religion, is a massive part of the problem - - if it were able to admit to itself that it was a disaster zone, then maybe some meaningful reform might happen.
           
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          • pete

            pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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            A fair amount of the NHS budget seems to go in compensation for bad practices as far as I can tell.
            Hardly a week goes by without some scandal about people dying in corridors or maternity failures.

            Admittedly we tend to only hear about the problems and not so much where everything went right, I would worry about turning up at A&E though.
             
          • Fat Controller

            Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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            That and Tony Blair & Gordon Brown's PFI costs. For all Labour's posturing about NHS privatisation, they privatised more of it than anyone else!
             
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            • Emptyheadtime

              Emptyheadtime Gardener

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              Lot of negativity for the NHS. Genuinely interested to hear what people think should happen to the NHS. Increase its funding/scrap it/ focus on private healthcare solutions etc. it’s easy for people to criticise but a lot harder to find workable solutions.
              I am in Ireland and I would support paying more taxes here to fund our HSE/healthcare (among other things) IF it was spent, in my view, wisely ie. Services/staffing and not more bureaucracy. Google tells me uk has about 15% of population with private health insurance vs closer to 50% here in Ireland (and over 50% in US) as people here feel they need it due to inadequacies of care. Insurance can cost €3-6k a year for a couple here, so if people paid more taxes to improve our HSE here then they could save this cost. Most here also pay €50 to see a doctor so it makes you think twice before going. Interestingly Norway has under 10% with private health insurance as they probably don’t feel the need for it.
               
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              • pete

                pete Growing a bit of this and a bit of that....

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                Never been a fan of making comparisons with Scandinavian countries, the mostly have much lower populations and pay lots of tax as far as I can work out.

                I think the term, spending wisely, says it all.

                They dont, anything government funded has always been a bottomless pit, you can go right back to the 70s and get an idea that nothing government run works.

                However not a lot in the Private sector works either if you let them do as they like, government, again, watchdog's are absolutely useless.
                 
              • ViewAhead

                ViewAhead Total Gardener

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                The only way to improve the NHS is to educate people on what it can and can't be expected to do. And to do this, media stories constantly scaring people about their health need to be stopped. Help people feel more confident that most things clear up on their own, that taking a pill for every ill harms you in the long run, and so on. People have completely lost the ability to judge when they need help. To cope with this, GP appts have been made scarce, but that is not the answer as things that genuinely are serious get missed along with the piffling stuff.
                 
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                • Fat Controller

                  Fat Controller 'Cuddly' Scottish Admin! Staff Member

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                  The negativity has been well and truly earned, believe me.

                  Funding has increased already, to no avail and I certainly wouldn't be throwing good money after bad - it needs gutting out and reformed first. So much time and money is wasted by the NHS "just because" that is the way it has always been done - and the knock-on effects cause costs elsewhere.

                  Taking just the experience in our own household...

                  Last September, after a number of months of stomach issues, I approached my GP for advice/help. Indeed, my stomach has been less than fantastic for a number of years and I've manged it with over the counter medication, but from around March last year through to September there was quite a severe deterioration, coupled with my appetite all but going for a couple of those months, so I thought that I'd be mad not to get professional advice.

                  GP wanted blood and stool samples, all duly provided within the week and wanted to refer me to the local hospital to "rule out bowel cancer" -- that appointment letter came through last Saturday and the appointment is for September of this year. It will be cancelled as bluntly, if I did have cancer, I'd be past helping or dead by the time I got there. Appointment is not to actually do anything, just to speak to a gastroenterologist. Add insult to injury, on Saturday I got a letter from the NHS - the good old "you are now 50 so we are going to send you a bowel cancer screening kit" -- frankly, they are extracting the urine at this point.

                  Also myself, December 2024, I fell downstairs, fractured my wrist and smacked my face into a floorstanding speaker - couple of teeth chipped, so contacted my dentist for an appointment. That appointment was finally given at the end of October last year where I learned that I'd actually fractured all of my front teeth at the jaw line, so they had to go. That was then set for end of January. They started taking them out, got to my canines, loosening both and then snapped one in half, so stopped. They ground off the snapped one and said they'd refer me to a specialist and it should be within the next three weeks. Three weeks and two days later, the specialist decided to reject the referral on the basis of my "complex" medical history, so that has now been referred across to a hospital in Weybridge and goodness only knows when it will be. At the time of typing, I have only one canine tooth at the front and a stump of one. No denture as the denture they had made won't fit with those still in place. Hopefully, I will get something of a denture next week and then wait for the rest.

                  Also during last year, I had a recurring earache, so contacted the GP for advice. Got a message back saying they couldn't help me and said I should go to A&E. Needless to say I responded that I would indeed NOT be going to A&E with an earache and would simply continue to sort it myself.

                  And they wonder why men don't bother going to a doctor when something feels off???

                  My other half was diagnosed with gallbladder issues 15 years ago, but they didn't want to do anything with it at that point. Roll forward to early last year and her symptoms were remarkably worse, so she contacted the GP who referred her to the hospital again. A scan in August revealed one gallstone in particular to be an inch and a half in diameter. Referred to a consultant to see what the next steps are. She chased that appointment back at the end of January and was told it would be "at least" 42 weeks before she heard anything. You can guarantee when she does hear something, it will be to see someone for a chat and not to actually have anything done.

                  That is just our household - we have loads more around the family and friends.

                  This is what is wrong - you have three, maybe four appointments before something might actually get done... they bounce you from one waiting list to the next to the next and this is how they are massaging their target achievements.

                  They waste so much money bouncing letters all over the parish, yet seem incapable of sending an email? They can use technology when it suits them to send you a text message for your weight or height, or to try and badger you to download their 'My Care' app (they can foxtrot oscar!) or to invite me for a cervical smear test (I almost booked that one just to see them try!)

                  NHS and indeed any government procurement is an absolute joke - circa £9 for paracetamol for example and then they squeal they've no money....

                  It needs hard-nosed battle hardened managers from the private sector to go in and cut all of the fluff out of it and make it work properly. With some, that would be about as popular as a fart in a lift though as they know their cushty wee jobs would be on the line.
                   
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                  • Philippa

                    Philippa Gardener

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                    As someone who rarely visits a GP , I did recently have 2 cataract removals at what I assume to be a private hospital. The cost was £45 for the original assessment by a local optician. Not perfect as the choice was limited to either Short or Long sight lens replacement. To benefit from both would have cost around £8 k without private health insurance.
                    I'd be the first to agree our NHS needs a good overhaul - too many chiefs and not enough indians has been the case for years. However a hell of a lot of people have cause to be grateful for the system even as it stands today. Preventable diseases ? Some could be put down to people refusing vaccinations for both themselves and their children. I realise there are only so many jabs you can put up with ( new ones pop up all the time ) but the number of people rejecting the well tested basic ones have to own up to their lack of responsible behaviour which will affect them, their families and others in their community. Lifestyle and diet also play a part in many common health problems.
                    Having just seen your post @Fat Controller it sounds like you are getting the roughest end of the NHS and I hope nothing I have said above makes things worse. Do you think your treatment ( or the lack of it ) has anything to do with the area in which you live ? So much seems to depend on that nowadays.
                    One thing I do find a bit odd re medics is the regular protests/strikes about pay and yet so many young people are still signing up for university degrees in that sphere. I guess we should also take into account those who use the NHS for improving their skills but then decamp to other countries - Australia was popular - for increased salaries.
                    Bit like everything else - even paying out more doesn't necessarily improve things:wallbanging:
                     

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