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Can perennials die underground?

Discussion in 'General Gardening Discussion' started by SimonZ, Oct 3, 2011.

  1. SimonZ

    SimonZ Gardener

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    Will hard winters, or other unfavourable conditions, cause plants' root systems to die, and prevent the re-emergence of the plants the following year? Does this happen anyway like old age in animals?
     
  2. Spruce

    Spruce Glad to be back .....

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    Hi Simon

    So many factors with perenials, some just die of old age like yoiu have mentioned others rot because to wet others die beacuse to cold or require full sun , pests slugs snails leatherjackets , voles etc .

    And this all depends were you live I cant grow Oriential popies more than two years they just fade away Armandii on here has had his for years so many factors come into play, I did have over 25 varieties of Agapanthus and after this winter left with 3 !!!

    What did you have thet never grew back ???
    Spruce
     
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    • alex-adam

      alex-adam Super Gardener

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      As you say, nothing lives forever. Perenniel plants by definition live for more than one season, some are short lived for say three or four years, others such as paeonies will live for decades.

      Hard winters can indeed kill them, we lost a well established ceanothus which was probably 30 years old over this last severe winter.

      a-a
       
    • ClaraLou

      ClaraLou Total Gardener

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      If you're worried about losing perennials during hard winters, look for plants which cope with freezing conditions in the wild, rather than borderline hardy specimens. I'm sure Penny in Ontario can give you a long list of perennials which just shrug off harsh winters!
       
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      • ARMANDII

        ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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        Hi Simon, you've obviously received some good advice about Perennials and some good points have been raised. Spruce has said that there are so many factors that can affect whether or not a plant will survive a hard Winter. I think without exception we've all lost some hardy Perennials over the last Winter despite our efforts, or not:D, to protect them. Container grown Perennials left outside in freezing conditions will be more susceptible to being frozen to death than those in the ground if left unprotected.
        You can sometimes lose Perennials during the Winter due to the fact the plant wasn't happy where it was, but you think it was the Winter that was responsible. No doubt we'll all be mourning of some favourite plant we lost if we have another hard and harsh Winter.
         
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        • HarryS

          HarryS Eternally Optimistic Gardener

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          You can notice a trend in this post already. Seems like the vast majority of us have lost a lot of perennial plants over the last two harsh winters . I would think most will take a lot more care this November protecting our plants.
          On the plus side I have bought a snow shovel ( wonderful invention ! )and a bag of rock salt . So snow is only a very dim possibility now :D
           
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          • SimonZ

            SimonZ Gardener

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            Thanks for all of your replies.

            As usual, my question is theoretical and not really prompted by any plant in particular.

            What I am interested in is if a perennial plant can die during its dormant season: if the conditions (such as a hard winter, etc) can suffice to actually kill it while the lant is not in bloom and thus "underground" (ie, its root system and caudex, etc.)

            Thanks.
             
          • SimonZ

            SimonZ Gardener

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            To simplify my question even further: if I have a perennial plant and it is perfectly healthy throughout summer, then dies down as usual for the winter, completely beneath the ground...and there is a hard winter or other unfavourable conditions...is there a chance that the following summer I will not see the plant re-appear, because it has died underground? Perhaps if I dug up its roots purelyout of interest I would find they had rotted or even disintegrated?
             
          • ARMANDII

            ARMANDII Low Flying Administrator Staff Member

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            Well, Simon, I'll have to give you a highly complicated answer to your simple question.

            Yes:D
             
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            • PeterS

              PeterS Total Gardener

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              Simon - You have had some good answers. One way of looking at it is to realise that even when a plant is dormant in winter it is still active but at a lower rate than in the summer. Rather like a bear when it's hibernating. And like a bear, it can die during hibernation if conditions aren't right.

              It can die from the cold. Most plants have a certain amount of built in antifreeze - though some have more than others. If the root temperature is too low, the sap will freeze. And when water freezes it expands and will burst the cell and plant walls just as a cold spell can burst water pipes in a house.

              Or it can die from the wet. Curiously when it dies from the wet it dies from a lack of water. Summer wet is usually not a problem because the plant draws up large quantities of water from its roots, and that water is transpired out via the leaves. But in the winter it needs virtually no water, and so can't get rid of the water round its roots. Just as a hibernating bear needs oxygen - so too do the roots. If they are water-logged then no oxygen will be available, and the roots will die. If the roots are dead they will rot, but what actually kills the plant is the fact that without roots it cannot draw up any water and so it dies from a lack of water.

              Another way that plants can die (particularly in USA - rather than here) is by dessication by the wind. If a plant has a bit of foliage it needs to draw up some water from the roots, especially if there is a strong wind that makes it lose water faster from the foliage. But if the roots are frozen the plant cannot obtain the water that it needs, and again it will die from dehydration.

              And then there is old age of course.
               
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              • SimonZ

                SimonZ Gardener

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                Does this, then, also mean that such a perennial might grow at a lesser rate or less healthily following a hard winter or other unfavourable conditions?

                To simplify: I am a herbaceous perennial. I have three stems growing from my roots, each with, say, five branches growing from their sides.
                After winter when I have died down, might I expect to re-emerge as a four-stemmed plant with six branches growing from the sides of the stems? Or does the rate at which I re-grow, even down to the number of buds and growths, depend on how I fared during the winter underground, ie the nutrients and water I was able to absorb?

                If the answer is yes, and like a baby in a mother's womb the underground plant poseses a genetic potential but might n emerge as healthily as possible, then does it also follow that each plant's DNA is a blueprint for the "ideal" version of that plat, or its logical extreme, but that this is rarely how the plant eventually appears, due to climate, nutrient intake, etc?

                Thanks.
                 
              • redstar

                redstar Total Gardener

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                Mostly, I spend my money wisely on perennial plants that are a zone lower than stated zone of my area, meaning they can handle colder that this area will get.
                So far in keeping with that system I've had success. If I do fall in love with a perennial plant that is at my exact zone, it will need to say vigorious for me to buy it and then I usually plant it closer to the house for the house heat, or in an area where the winter winds don't hit it.
                 
              • PeterS

                PeterS Total Gardener

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                Simon - if a plant fares badly over winter and some of its tissue dies then it will recover slowly next spring or even not at all.

                However some plants will be slightly genetically different and if they survive better they will take over from those whose DNA is not as well adapted. This is how all evolution occurs.
                 
              • Chopper

                Chopper Do I really look like a people person?

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                There's really no telling which will die and which will survive, make sure you have a good selection of cuttings taken in the sumer autumn to overwinter any ones that you really dont want to lose, well thats what i try and do. Had loads of delphiniums , half dark blue and half white, all the white ones seem to have survived and are now shooting but the dark blue ones have yet to show and having a poke around the soil I think I have lost most of them, luckily have a back up supply :)

                Mrs Chopper
                 
              • Sheal

                Sheal Total Gardener

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                White flowering plants tend to be hardier/tougher than any other colour during overwintering Mrs. Chopper. :)
                 
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